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June 18, 2015

Comments

chithanh

I think Nokia is safe from Microsoft patent threats for the duration of their agreement (10 years?)

So there is no way to patent bully Nokia into pre-installing Microsoft software on their phones, which has so far been the only way to get other vendors to do that.

I agree that the timing between Elop's firing and Nokia's return to Android announcement does not look like coincidence. That Nokia called Microsoft to inform them in advance seems the most plausible scenario to me.

Crun Kykd

New Nokia on Android acquiring Sailfish and her people for their modern OS would be akin to Apple on MacOS-9 acquiring Next and her people for their more modern OSX.

Spawn

@M Christopher McFann

> I know there is money to be made in the Windows Mobile

There is nobody including and especially Microsoft and Nokia who knows there is not only no money to be made but its a cash burning machine that failed. We saw that any partner who tried got burned, no single exception. There was only Microsoft and Nokia left, Nokia gave up, Microsoft had to buy them, only Microsoft was left. Then Bill Gates aborted it, Ballmer got gone, Satya closed the chapter. Its over, there is not even Microsoft left on it since they went Android and iOS with there flagship cashcow Officd already. That Office that is newer, stable and better integrated i to Android and iOS then it ever was at Windows RT. That Office that never made it to WP.

No, there is no money to be made there. Not even by Microsoft itself. Once Microsoft reaches breakeven or marketshare above rounding-errors at Windows Phone/Mobile/ARM there may options. Till then there is nothing but a moneyhole.

@chithanh

> no way to patent bully Nokia into pre-installing Microsoft software on their phones

Not bully but pay the way in. Of course money exchanged owners to make that happen. If it happened due to, for others, more lucrative Android-bully-patent deals or not, its the same effect: Microsoft gives up some dollar, they either have or would have, to make it happen.

And why would the other side not accept it? Its unlikely there are other vendors, options, offers to make more money not preinstalling this. Most would probably preinstall about any spyware if profit is higher then lose. There are no ethics in that, only hard dollars.

Microsoft will buy its way in since they need to. They need to catchup fast to stay relevant.

AtTheBottomOfTheHilton

My guess is that they will acquire Jolla. Jolla is now not producing anything and the app store doesn't even support paid apps which is a serious problem. The solution for Jolla is to be acquired by Nokia so that they can build up a comprehensive app-system for Jolla. Nokia has the muscles and the past experience in creating the financial systems and that's also why I think they haven't implemented it yet, they are waiting for Nokia.

While Android phones by Nokia has a market, I think they should also provide Jolla phones. I will never ever buy an Android phone because of the privacy problems with Google. Therefore there is a market for those who value privacy.

Snowman

Why on earth Nokia would need to acquire Jolla? There is no logic in those statements above about this!
Nokia might have discussed with Jolla about the option of SailfishOS. It's very natural for 2 Finnish companies with the headquarters in the same city. The announcement of Jolla's chairman of the board, Antti Saarino to partner with a not yet revealed hardware manufacturer might be a hint for that. Also Fairphone is in discussion using SailfishOS instead of Android. Nothing would change for the user perspective, just that he can expect a sleeker, faster and surely nicer to use operating system which enables multitasking-Android-app-support. Any current SailfishOS user won't like to change back to Android. It's a good argument for 2 Finnish companies to partner and do real innovation from a country where smartphones have been invented! Nokia just with Android will not work as @CHRIS and @E.CASAIS had nicely convinced with their arguments.

RottenApple

You got it totally wrong.

Nokia WITHOUT Android will fail, it won't have any chance of success at all.
Nokia doesn't have the resources to maintain a working ecosystem so at least at the start they must use something existing. They are starting at Zero and what you propose would amount to fighting not one uphill battle but two, with the second one having the odds stacked even higher against Nokia.

I just repeat myself: The only people who would ever think of buying a Nokia/Sailfish phone are the old-school die-hard Nokia fanatics. Nobody else! That's bring a few 100000 sales, and that'd be it.

It's 5 years too late to build a working ecosystem, it might have worked in 2011 when the competition was weak. Now, with Android and iOS taking 95% of the market even a system with nominal Android compatibility won't cut it.
Even Amazon had to learn that lesson the hard way and Amazon's resources are considerably larger than Nokia's.

Building an ecosystem costs money - lots of it. Nokia needs that money to build up a working production pipeline first.

I don't get it why you want Nokia to repeat the same mistakes that ultimately led to their demise the last time. It was precisely the same nonsense (Android won't allow you to differentiate) that drove them to an uncompetetive alternative.

abdul muis

@E.Casais

"1) In software, there is just one: Nokia HERE -- which is a superior mapping system, at least as good as Google maps.

Problem: Google does not allow competing services to assume a core position in Android devices. We have known this from the conflict with Motorola and Samsung way back in 2009-2010. In other words: Nokia HERE cannot be the default mapping application; hence, Nokia cannot fully bring its sole software jewel in a mobile environment to bear."

This is what ELOP said defending his decision to use WP. But this NOT TRUE!!!!

Google didn't FORBID other vendor to pre-install anything. Ex. Microsoft office (or other office suite vs. Google office suite), other web browser vs. Google Chrome web browser.

abdul muis

@Wayne Brady

You haven't seen how nokia play this game, and you already giving a negative thinking attitude???

E.Casais

Wayne Brady is actually expressing the same arguments as those I put forth previously -- just in a more forceful way.

In brief: there are currently no elements in Nokia's portfolio of skills and technologies, nor in the sketched approach to re-enter the mobile phone market (brand without fab) that disprove the conclusion that those new Nokia smartphones will be anything else than feature-wise undifferentiated, overpriced wannabe devices.

E.Casais

@abdul muis

"Google didn't FORBID other vendor to pre-install anything."

This is correct, but re-read my comment:

Google does not allow competing services to assume a core position in Android devices. [...] In other words: Nokia HERE cannot be the default mapping application.

And this is the crux: the default mapping application will remain Google maps. The user has to make a conscious choice to set Nokia HERE as a default, _provided_ Android allows Nokia HERE to replace Google maps as the service invoked whenever an app or the OS needs mapping functions.

Rumour has it that the initial discussions in 2010 or so between Nokia and Google got stuck on exactly this point. Just like Google did not allow Samsung and Motorola to use a different positioning scheme as a default, Google did not allow Nokia to put its mapping service as a default.

Maggan

@Waybe Brady

I think the reasoning is that Nokia is a stronger brand than even Apple outside of the US and Japan, especially in developing countries. That will be enough to get the dedicated Nokia fans to pick up anything they release, and then Nokia can build from that. And with low priced handsets for the vast number of customers available in those developing countries, and who love the Nokia brand, Nokia will capture market share, and then all will be fine.

At least that's the theory. I'm a doubter, but as I've said before if they pull it off, Samsung and Apple will be happy since it will prove that a comeback is possible even after huge missteps.

Maggan

@Wayne Brady

Apologies for mistyping your name.

E.Casais

@Maggan

"That will be enough to get the dedicated Nokia fans to pick up anything they release, and then Nokia can build from that."

It is true that Nokia is still a recognized brand throughout the world. Till 2010, basically everybody (outside Japan and South Korea) had used a Nokia handset. But what has remained in the mind of people when mentioning Nokia mobile phones are three aspects:

1) they were indestructible;
2) a battery charge lasted forever;
3) they caught a signal everywhere.

A Nokia reboot will face several difficulties:

1) Phones will most probably be standard touchscreen slabs -- the kind of fragile devices always carried encased within a protective shell. If they are not waterproof, then the first argument goes entirely out of the window.

2) Managing to get three days out of a single charge with a touchscreen smartphone is an incredibly rare performance nowadays. I doubt new Nokia devices will even manage that -- forget about a full week like former Nokia handsets.

3) Since the new devices will use standard chips (whether Qualcomm, Samsung, Mediatek) differences in RF capabilities (the famed "catch a signal, no matter how faint, under any circumstances") will be small.

Nokia will therefore not be able to capitalize on any of these positive traits associated with its brand.

"And with low priced handsets for the vast number of customers available in those developing countries, and who love the Nokia brand, Nokia will capture market share"

That is if a Nokia reboot targets entry-level devices, but Tomi thinks Nokia will go for the high-end only.

A strength of the former Nokia is that it had everything covered: entry-level, mid-range, high-end. Focusing on just one segment again discards a positive trait formerly associated with the brand.

I repeat myself: a "brand-no-fab" based approach will probably result in me-too, wannabe products without any differentiating strength. But I am ready to be surprised.

John A

Saw some info that Nokia are not allowed to come back until Q4, 2016.
A long time in the fast moving phone industry.

All remaining Nokia centers/shop will be renovated to "Microsoft Priority Resellers Stores" during this year to:

Nokia Priority store is now Microsoft Priority Reseller Store. First one opens in Chennai - See more at:

http://indianexpress.com/article/technology/tech-news-technology/microsoft-opens-first-re-branded-nokia-store-in-chennai/#sthash.Vk8ev6ww.dpuf

Microsoft still got the Nokia name for 10 years for the feature phones also.

I suppose Nokia will do some Android handsets but I wonder how much the Nokia name still means especially for younger people that buy Samsung, HTC, Sony and so on?

RottenApple

@John A.:

"Microsoft still got the Nokia name for 10 years for the feature phones also."

And we all know that this will be worth shit for Microsoft. Actually, this may work in Nokia's favor, since their brand name is being used by somebody else with non-competing product, i.e. advertisement for free.

abdul muis

@E.Casais

"This is correct, but re-read my comment:

Google does not allow competing services to assume a core position in Android devices. [...] In other words: Nokia HERE cannot be the default mapping application."

Read this:
http://www.nokiapoweruser.com/here-beta-app-will-come-pre-installed-on-samsung-galaxy-devices-from-next-month/

The information you quote about Google does not allow competing services is COME FROM ELOP MOUTH!!!! It was Elop who spread that rumors. It's NOT TRUE!!!

Samsung Galaxy S6 come with competing services, Microsoft Cloud drive, instead of the Google cloud. And also Microsoft Office, instead of Google's offering.

Spawn

@E.Casais

> Nokia HERE [...] Rumour has it that the initial discussions in 2010 or so between Nokia and Google got stuck on exactly this point.

I wouldn't give much on whatever your unnamed source for that rumour is. Fact is Nokia, if gone Android, wouldn't have gone Google OH but AOSP like they did later with NokiaX. Driving force wasn't HERE but the success of Ovi and, way ore important, to exactly not give up to much "control of there destiny".

http://thenextweb.com/mobile/2012/07/04/i-told-nokia-to-go-android-elop-and-the-board-should-be-fired-former-apple-exec-jean-louis-gassee/

Anssi Vanjoki has the best take on it and cro todays perspective he was spot on:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/21/ce-oh-no-he-didnt-anssi-vanjoki-says-using-android-is-like-pe/

"Two turkeys do not make an Eagle" :-)

Spawn

Speaking about "what if?"
As an idea we could also have a look at this part of Nokia that didn't switched to Windows Phone but switched from Symbian to Android and compare...

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2013/02/12/the-new-10000-android-phone-from-vertu/
"Vertu has remained profitable." unlike Nokia. There is the "differentiation" :-)

WonTheLottery

I recently went from Android to Sailfish and I'm certainly in no hurry to go back. There are a huge number of Android devices in circulation that have bugs and security flaws for which they will never receive updates, these devices will be e-waste before you can say: "Aaslakkajärvi". It's so nice to be back to a well made device for which I regularly receive OTA updates so it doesn't feel like it's decaying in my pocket.

Having said that I fully expect when NOKIA do unveil their new device it will be just another Android slab starting its 24 month trek to landfill.

E.Casais

@abdul muis

I know very well that you can install additional, competing software, and even ship devices with such software pre-installed. My point remains:

"In other words: Nokia HERE cannot be the ===>default<=== mapping application."

If an app invokes mapping services, which one will pop up by default? GMS or HERE?

If an OS service, such as Google Now, wants to display localized information, which one will be used? GMS or HERE?

If the user just wants to launch navigation services via the OS (after a search, via a suggestion, whatever), which one will be proposed _by default_? GMS or HERE?

This is the crux. Look at how difficult it is to enforce that a third-party browser becomes the default, i.e. is always used whenever browsing is required. Can you make sure that HERE becomes the _default_ mapping service in Android? Must you go AOSP for that? Then sorry, without a whole bunch of superior services to substitute the Google ones, this will not fly.

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