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« Smartphone Bloodbath Q1 of 2015 same ole, same ole | Main | Mobile First Means What? It Means SMS First, Of Course. The Only Gorilla In Mobile... Is SMS Text Messaging Of Course. 4.5x Bigger than total global smartphone apps ‘economy’ »

June 04, 2015

Comments

Winter

@chithanh
Boron95 still lives in the Job reality distortion field where Apple destroued all enemies and conquered everything that matters

Paul I

Actually, the dumb moves (a.k.a getting iSheep flu) of Sony and Samsung make the whole phone arena much more fun to watch! Otherwise it would be a very boring phone arena to watch (i.e. "farming" phase as Tomi has called it). Probably the main beneficiaries here will be the Chineese phone manufactures which get Android for free and ironically this goes against Google (e.g. no Google services in China and therefore no advertising income; Google's services on Android get replaced on Android by third Bing/Baidu/Yandex search engines => fun to watch).

Winter

@Boron95
"Apple and Samsung had already cornered the supply chain for capacitive touch screens and flash memory. Nokia only had access to second rate application processors."

Nokia sold more than 10 million Lumina handsets in the first year (2012) and 30 million in the second.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Lumia


And as written before, Nokia had to write off large inventories due to a lack of demand.

So, please, give us some evidence of your claim that they were constrained by supplies.

AtTheBottomOfTheHilton

We can speculate about the opposite, if Sony decided to keep the Z4 name. Then the reviews would have been like, "not a worthy successor", "no need to upgrade" or "it's basically a Z3".

The truth is that this is not entirely the fault of Sony but also Qualcomm. As we all know today, the Snapdragon 810 is a turkey has a lot of troubles with heat and when the throttling kicks in it's not faster than it's predecessor. They are also keeping the same camera and don't bump the screen resolution.

In my view Sony tries to be honest with the naming.

chithanh

@Baron95
> Nokia in early 2011 had no cash and little ability to borrow to finance a reorientation of its business away from Symbian into a new ecosystem.

Um, what? Nokia had an almost perfect credit rating in early 2011, and it got immediately downgraded after they moved to WP. Plus they somehow had the money to buy out Siemens from NSN.

CDMA was like 10% of the mobile market back then, and mostly confined to the U.S. where Nokia wasn't that big anyway.

And that you need billion of dollars to produce Android handsets is a ridiculous claim. Chinese white-box manufacturers do it with much less money to start with. And they have no problems acquiring Qualcomm chips. Even producing WP devices can't be that hard, considering the HTC M9 for Windows is basically an Android phone with minimal modifications.

zlutor

@chithanh: I do not know whether baron95 is right or not in this case - I think he is not - but your statement ("Plus they somehow had the money to buy out Siemens from NSN.") has no any connection with situation in 2011. It happened years later, actually largely "paid" by Microsoft: http://www.zdnet.com/article/nokia-turns-to-microsofts-eur1-5bn-buyout-loan-to-pay-for-nsn/

In 2011-2012 Nokia had - despite huge losses largely generated by our most beloved Nokia CEO ever - billion of cash: http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/07/19/us-nokia-idUSBRE86I0F620120719

So, I think, they could finance Android path, too. Of course, getting billion from M$ was not a bad thing but I think they would pay some money even if Nokia does not accept exclusivity. It was big, really BIG back then and anybody would be happy to cooperate with them - including Qualcomm and Google, I guess (Samsung was already long lasting partner then).

@baron995: your comment about such bad Nokia-Qualcomm relationship was really interesting. Any fact/links?
I have made quick googling and it seems to be the opposite:
e.g.
https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2008/07/23/nokia-and-qualcomm-enter-new-agreement
http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/21/nokia-qualcomm-mobile-technology-wireless-nokia.html
http://www.insiteo.com/joomla/index.php/en/our-news/192-partnership-between-nokia-here-and-qualcomm-atheros-a-boost-for-indoor-location

@Tomi: how do you see this? Was it a real issue?


Huber

@Baron95:

"Sony is done in phones. Calling it Z3+ is not going to be the reason for their collapse. The reason is that no one cares to buy a Sony phone that is indistinguishable from the hordes of Android phones."

This is not correct: Sony's devices are good. I own the Z2 Tablet It is a gorgeous device with good build quality, it is fast and open. The phones have a good UI, good cameras and SD card support. Sony's compact phones have the same hardware than their bigger brothers, unlike e.g. Samsung, where the compacts have cheaper hardware.

The problem with Sony is that their marketing is incredibly bad: Important sites like Anandtech don't get parts for review, and you hardly see them at retailers.

Last week I was at Media Markt (a big German retailer). 80-90% of the available space was filled with Apple and Samsung tablets and phones. Additionally, they had a single Sony device (Z3), a single LG device (G3), a single HTC device (One M9) and a few Huawei phones.
Add to this a bunch of sub-€100 noname tablets, and that's it.

So customers who shop around hardly see any Sony devices. You explicitly have to search for a device with certain specs which are not met by Apple and Samsung. Otherwise the sales guy will sell you Samsung or Apple.

This is the erason why Sony is in troubles despite technically getting most things right. It is a shame, really.

Catriona

@Tomi, Elisa Pay sounds very low tech to me. Without a PIN or a fingerprint scan, and by sending receipts via SMS, it seems extremely unsecure. Anyway, the carriers here in the U.S. had "Isis Wallet" (since renamed Softcard, and now part of Google Wallet, soon to be Android Pay) in 2012. We all agree NFC payments aren't anything new, but what makes Apple Pay and Android Pay somewhat more appealing than traditional NFC payments is the additional security.

Spawn

@chithanh

> The Qualcomm hardware that Windows Phone runs on is also suitable for Android

The N9, and its brother the N950, also did run Android.
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90646
Nitdroid, done by only some people in there free time without all the resources Nokia had.

Sailfish OS, based on Meego, even integrated Android as runtime going a step future. Also with very limited resources compared to what Nokia had.

@Paul I

> no Google services in China and therefore no advertising income

Most such devices ship Chrome which is Google's advertise-window. Claiming no advertising income is certainly as wrong as claiming Google not makes mkney on Windows-users.

The real problem is the lack of service lockin. No gmail, probably no google search, no gmaps and gdata, etc. Such users are not bound into the google ecosystem, they have choice and they are hard to track, profile and fill databases about. No data, no oil. A huge chunk of people who neither facebook or google (and by logical extend the NSA) has detailed informations about.

> Bing

Bind is dead. Get used to it.

@Tomi T Ahonen

> And they want me to register my phone number or upgrade?

Yeah, they need more data, more oil. Connecting creditcard, phonenumbner, everything to your profile.
Suggestion: switch to another service. You have the choice to not let them pass with that :-)

Spawn

@Catriona

> fingerprint [...] additional security

"fingerprint biometrics is unsuitable as access control method and should be avoided"

http://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-touchid

Paul I

@Spawn

>> no Google services in China and therefore no advertising income
>
> Most such devices ship Chrome which is Google's advertise-window.

Yes, but that Chrome will have also Baidu as search engine (and probably all the code lines which helps Google to get user data commented out). Therefore how Google pushes advertise? It can't.

The future belongs to Android but an Android where Google will be removed little by little out by different forces (e.g. China, Microsoft, Samsung, etc.). Even Samsung dreams about an Android where Google services are replaced by Samsung services. That battle of the future is getting Google services (and Google also) out of Android. This will be done removing screw by screw. Of course Google Play Store will be tough to replace but this is not impossible if a lot of money are put in marketing.

> Claiming no advertising income is certainly as wrong as claiming
> Google not makes mkney on Windows-users.

Google makes money from Windows-users!!! All the those Windows users which use Google as search engine on their Windows computers!

You got really wrong this one! ;-)

Catriona

@Spawn, a fingerprint ID may not be the most secure, but it's more secure than no user authentication whatsoever.

Paul I

Again fake Tomi strikes?

chithanh

@zlutor
I guess you are right and I was wrong about the NSN loan.
Still as you pointed out, Nokia had considerable cash reserves at the beginning of 2011. This is stated in their financial report.

@Spawn
Yep. Android runs on anything and everything. Getting components that run Android is very easy, and hobbyists manage to port it even to devices that were never meant to run Android in the first place.
Compare that to Windows, it is always newsworthy when Microsoft ports Windows to a new platform because that happens not so often...

@the fake Tomi
You have some nerve coming to someone else's blog and posting an ultimatum.

If you think your or someone else's predictions are better than Tomi's, or have evidence of wrongdoing, feel free to post that on your own blog. Maybe you will get the attention you deserve.

Spawn

@Paul I

> Therefore how Google pushes advertise? It can't.

Oh, it can. Google Ads and Analytics are everywhere far beyond there own search & service landscape. But they are, if way lesser data about the product (you and me, everybody not using there services) is available, not tailor ads in the same way they can with others. That undermines the value each ad has if we are target) and that takes away profits. There are ads but this are lesser worth.

> That battle of the future is getting Google services (and Google also) out of Android.

Agreed.

@Catriona

> a fingerprint ID may not be the most secure, but it's more secure than no user authentication whatsoever.

Elisa Wallet uses certificates and pin according to the sources I found. I am not sure where Tomi got that they are not using pins? Also fingerprint-authorization is NOT an app-feature but thats done by the OS and if its used it really shouldn't be) then all apps can use it, transparently.

The proper way is anyways an external device that includes pki and youhave-verification like was the case pre 2005 yes, that old) already. Ingegration all that into a mlbike is a very bad idea from security perspective. But hey, just like banks and creditcard-companies us techies are fine to give customers shot-in-the-feed tools if profit matches.

Paul I

@spawn

>> Therefore how Google pushes advertise? It can't.
>
>Oh, it can. Google Ads and Analytics are everywhere far beyond
> there own search & service landscape. But they are, if way
> lesser data about the product (you and me, everybody not
> using there services) is available, not tailor ads in the
> same way they can with others. That undermines the value
> each ad has if we are target) and that takes away
> profits. There are ads but this are lesser worth.

True but as you just wrote is waaaayyyy lesser service.

Paul

@Fake Tomi

Please, do us all a favor and post under a different name than Tomi T Ahonen!

I do not give a flying f... what has happened or what is happening there but do not be a pussy and stop pretending being Tomi T Ahonen!

Paul

@Paron95

It looks you are trying hard here to re-write the history going on and on again and again! You justify now Nokia's mistakes now thru its final failure in mobile phones, which is called also affirming "the consequent". Basically this is an incorrect logic! Google for "affirming the consequent" to see what I mean.

Here is a challenge for you! Try to make some predictions (about future of course and mobile phones)!

Winter

@Baron
"You guys are trying to re-write history."

Evidence, my dear Watson, evidence.

Give us evidence.

zlutor

@baron95: you are right, I really have no experience with procurement stuff - that's why I wrote "I GUESS"...
On the other hand Nokia had more than 1bn back then, isn't it?

Anyway, that time has passed. But I hope we will see the return when they do it better. Or not... :D

The comments to this entry are closed.

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