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June 04, 2014

Comments

baron99

@RottenApple now YOU clearly show an irrational PRO-Microsoft bias. Since you have NO FACTS to refute what the links say, you can only resort to calling names and call me "biased" and say "FUD" as if that is some kind of intelligent response ...Oh Ok, you win, microsoft is loved and their products are great ...pathetic! For everyone else, where is the truth?

I think everyone who has been, for decades, FORCED to pay for crappy Microsoft products knows the truth. Dismissing the links from numerous diverse people/organizations who have been screwed over by microsoft is just ignoring reality (and just what microsoft wants.) There are lots more links. They all didn't just sit around one day say: hey, lets be "Biased" and get microsoft. No, microsoft earned it! (e.g. consider current nonsense such as scroogled).

baron99

@RottenApple BTW, NO ONE WANTS A WINDOWS PHONE LoL

Wintee

@RottenApple
Yes, MS products are utter crap

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2008/04/what-microsoft-could-learn-from-apple/
Windows is dying, Windows applications suck, and Microsoft is too blinkered to fix any of it—that's the argument. The truth is that Windows is hampered by 25-year old design decisions. These decisions mean that it's clunky to use and absolutely horrible to write applications for. The applications that people do write are almost universally terrible. They're ugly, they're inconsistent, they're disorganized; there's no finesse, no care lavished on them. Microsoft—surely the company with the greatest interest in making Windows and Windows applications exude quality—is, in fact, one of the worst perpetrators.

baron99

@Winter ...I just loved it when RottenApple dismisses the links to the "Seattle Times Newspaper" and "USA Today" as "haters" and "biased" and to be dismissed "with a grain of salt". Wow, those are truly powerful intellectual arguments ....I am humbled by their insight and I have now learned that if you speak the truth (with an unpleasant tone) and it doesn't favor microsoft it must be wrong. I guess Tomi's numbers must be wrong too ...LOL!

RottenApple

@baron99:

As I said, you've got an axe to grind, you are heavily biased, you dismiss everything that might disprove your biased view. To be blunt: I don't take people like you seriously.

In fact, you act like an overzealous anti-Microsoft astroturfer whose sole mission is to discredit them. I know myself that Microsoft has done some evil things - but you make it sound that they are incapable of doing anything BUT evil things - and that's just ludicrous.

As for the links you posted, most are hard to read hate papers, nothing more. Forgive me for not subjecting myself to more of that kind of torture. Reading two of them was enough. Yes, they may have a point but they utterly fail to get the point across in a credible manner. Sure, people like you will love them because they conveniently pat you on the back confirming your views but for levelheaded people they are just diatribes trying to further an agenda.

@Wintee (or is it Winter):

Yeah, your last post falls into the same category as the articles I lambasted.
Concerning Windows vs. MacOSX, sorry but I find these comparisons praising the Mac hard to believe.
Yes, sure, I have written Windows software for 20 years, I know the system inside out but you know what: My 20 year old code still works! Can't say the same for Apple who constantly deprecate and change stuff and make it hard for developers to keep their stuff running. They changed platforms twice in that time and constantly make things incompatible. And their attitude towards controlling their users is a lot worse than with Microsoft. Going from Microsoft to Apple just means exchanging one monster for another one that I consider far, far more dangerous.
As for Windows applications being badly written - should I laugh now? I have seen badly written Windows stuff, sure - but I have also seen some badly written MacOSX stuff, badly written iOS stuff and badly written Android stuff. How would you want to get rid of it? Some programmers are incompetent and unable to write decent software, no matter what system they target. Of course on Windows with its far larger user base you are bound to find more crap.

But sure, unreflected generalizations are the way to bring a point across.


While I agree that Microsoft desperately needs to be brought a few notches down I don't step so low to universally dismiss everything they do in such universal terms. If you want to discuss Microsoft's evildoing, do it in a rational manner - but you two are just spilling unreflected hate, mostly backed by articles spilling the same unreflected hate. It wouldn't even surprise me if you two do not even use Windows anymore and can't speak from personal experience. I've had my share of discussion with Microsoft bashers elsewhere and they nearly all show the same traits

And before anyone asks, as a mobile developer I have to work with both MacOSX and Windows, I have to use the development tools for iOS, Android and Windows Phone. I have done a lot of code that needs to run on multiple platforms so please don't come with '25 year old design decisions'. If these design decisions lasted for this long they can't have been that bad.

I also know the problems of all platforms inside out. As development tools I clearly prefer Microsoft's stuff which is just more refined than Apple's XCode. That doesn't change, though, that both Windows Phone and Windows Store are utterly pathetic platforms that have to be considered bad design failures.

But you want to know what? The most badly written garbage tools among these is Android! Their SDK is an utterly pathetic and hard to use piece of shit, their choice of IDE is pitiful and working with this garbage software is a pain in the ass, regardless of doing it on Mac or Windows. So much for FOSS is better, I'd say.

Sihtoo

@RottenApple

I agree with you that baron99 seems to be mostly posting hate talk. His credibility is actually mostly gone with statements like "NO ONE WANTS A WINDOWS PHONE" because that's obviously not true and with capitals, really something we are not getting from people really willing to talk about this.

"This was what Nokia's customers were waiting for! They were waiting for Symbian's successor, that'd continue Nokia's history"

The time required for the transition actually is a valid question. While we have seen lots of proof of how WP really was the wrong choice for Nokia, ans it really was there is no doubt on that, we haven't seen any real data suggesting that MeeGo would have been able to stop the collapse of the market share or even the unit sales. What kind of evidence should there be?

First we should know how fast the transition would have been. The only way to know that would be comparing the transition from Symbian to MeeGo with some other similar transition. One good example might be Nokia's transition to S60.

What it comes to details we would need to compare the price segments Nokia had in 2010. How many under $200 were sold in 2010? How many $200-$400 devices were sold and how many >$400 were sold? People rarely move to a more expensive price range but they do move easily to cheaper alternatives if there is one.

Then we would need to know how soon Nokia would have been able to cover all those price ranges and how many people would have switched to MeeGo phones on each market segment. It would also be required to have some real info about how quickly Nokia could have been able to cover all those price segments. Just saying that Nokia could have launched a $50 MeeGo phone by the end of 2011 is not enough. We know they were able to launch a $500-$600 phone in 2011 but we also know that the Meltemi project was given axe only in mid 2012 and at the time it was still not ready to ship. We would need some real info about that. Real time tables instead of someone saying that Nokia just could have been able to ship Meltemi in 2011.

It's ok to say that WP was a failure for Nokia since that's obviously proven. However saying that MeeGo would have been so much better sounds strange as long as we don't have a real study telling us how it would have been possible.

AndThisWillBeToo

@Sihtoo
> How many under $200 were sold in 2010?

Answer is: Most of them. Over 76% of Symbian phones sold in 2010-2011 were Nokia 523X variants if we dig through Nokia numbers:
http://mynokiablog.com/2013/09/05/mnb-rg-nokia-5230-the-unsung-hero-device/

Sihtoo

@AndThisWillBeToo

I find that very hard to believe. Besides, 2011 numbers are no longer valid for this comparison because they are infected by the memo. What would be useful would be the 2010 numbers in >$400 category. This is where converting existing users to MeeGo would have been possible. How many users were there? Assuming that Nokia could have been able to sell MeeGo from the start of the second half of 2011, the most interesting numbers would be from the first half of 2010 because that would match with the 18 month replacement cycle. Most customers purchasing the MeeGo phones would have been coming from there.

How strong sales did Nokia have in the first half of 2010 in >$400 phones? Knowing this will give us a rough estimate of how many MeeGo phones Nokia would have been able to sell. of course assuming that Android and iOS were not gaining from that segment.

baron99

@RottenApple

I don't take people like you seriously. Post some FACTS to refute what the links say. Better yet go and ask microsoft what you should say. Please tell us how wonderful microsoft is, please, please, please tell us with a straight face after they destroyed Nokia.

The name calling without substance is just classic astroturfing. You want to attempt to marginalize what microsoft doesn't agree with. You are now following microsoft talking points with attacking open source. People on this blog know who and what you are. It seems to only bother the astroturfers when I say NO ONE WANTS A WINDOWS PHONE!!! (it's true just check Tomi's statistics) It must really stick in you throat that WP is such a piece of garbage. You are too funny :-)

This has been a great posting exercise to reveal the microsoft trolls

RottenApple

@Baron99:

I'm not talking about facts, I'm talking about style.

Post something telling the story in a LEVELHEADED fashion and we may talk again. Post bullshit hate pieces and you lost me. I'm not willing to discuss anything on that basis.

You blanketly accuse others of Microsoft astroturfing, as if that attitude alone gives you the higher ground. But let's face it: You are not willing to discuss Microsoft in a manner that allows others to voice their opinions. All you want is confirmation that they are the Root of All Evil - and you won't get that from me.

While I fully agree that their mobile offerings are pieces of shit - and have repeatedly said so, doesn't mean that everything they did is bad. I'm willing to discuss quality of Microsoft products on a case by case basis, but I'm not willing to discuss them on the grounds that everything they do is inferior by default, and most certainly not on the grounds that if I happen to like some stuff they make (case in point: Visual Studio) that this automatically means that I am supportive of their more questionable tactics.

So you are against Microsoft, fine. I can accept that. But you are employing the same methods - that I can not accept. You post links to articles that are just as much FUD as facts, and the writing style makes it very hard to sort it all out. I can't discuss anything on that basis, the articles are ultimately just as bogus as the false impressions Microsoft gives - just in the opposite direction. And it's easy for you to say 'provide facts'. My response is: 'Provide proof that these articles are the whole truth and nothing else'. You won't be able to do this just as I wouldn't be able to disprove their content. This is just a war of opinions, and as usual the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

baron99

I am simply NOT supporting Microsoft. I have had enough of that garbage producing company. Yes, they screwed over Nokia and a lot of people got hurt. Just because someone is upset with microsoft and you don't like their writing style then you attack them. It is exactly what the astroturfers do to attempt to margionalize them. I won't be silent. Your bogus arguments lack FACTS. The name calling is what they do in grade school. Take one of the links and please tell us how it is "FUD". The passion in the writing doesn't mean they are not telling the truth. There is a long line of people who despise the company for many valid reasons. Your veiled support means you are one of the clever astroturfers to me or just a troll. Oh BTW, NO ONE WANTS A WINDOWS PHONE! ...or please tell us all why windows phone is so popular. I need a good chuckle.

Sihtoo

@baron99

This is obviously not true.

"NO ONE WANTS A WINDOWS PHONE"

There definitely are at least few people who want a Windows Phone. You are saying how no one wants it. You would be right if you said that only relatively few people want it or it has very low sales. However it's completely false to claim that there are no single person who would be wanting a WP device.

baron99

@sihtoo

...So you would challenge a statement such as NO ONE WANTS A WINDOWS PHONE", after looking at Tomi's statistics, which many people would just smile and nod their head and statistically agree with?

Why does it upset you so much? Are you just feeling sorry for microsoft? I wouldn't! ...or is it because you really do support microsoft. Do they employ you? ...and you feel you need to defend them. The statement is just there to irritate the hidden microsoft supporters. Are you one?

Some of these people don't like my writing style. That's just too bad for them. I don't like their sneaky style of embedding hidden microsoft support. I am just pointing it out.

Feel free to challenge any of the links I posted. Pick a sentence or paragraph and tell what is wrong and we can have an interesting discussion (I included the home town newspaper of microsoft too and USA today - you know how hateful they are ...that is sarcasm BTW). microsoft supporters don't want to go there because they lose. But they want me to stop saying what I believe because they don't like my style. Notice how those who don't like my style embrace name calling. I have to wonder what are they so upset about.

BTW NO ONE WANTS A WINDOWS PHONE! ...LOL

Sihtoo

@baron99

It doesn't really matter too much. You just wanted to know what's false in your statements and that's one thing that's clearly wrong. While it may be true that relatively very few people want to get a Windows Phone, it's still a fact that there are few people who want it. That's why saying how no one wants it clearly is wrong.

If you don't want to know what's wrong with your messages, please don't ask. If you do, understand that someone may point out something like that.

baron99

@Sihtoo ...Since WP is not selling and "it doesn't really matter too much". Why bother to challenge it. It is a statistical interpretation most businessmen would make. Otherwise it seems kind of petty to point it out.

baron99

Some recent (and not so recent) news you may find interesting. I missed they stopped support for 8.1. But you may consider this is from the "hateful" Forbes magazine :-)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2014/04/15/microsoft-abandons-windows-8-1-take-immediate-action-or-be-cut-off-like-windows-xp/

BTW, since people like to predict the future, here is a fun read about some upcoming microsoft stuff ...you can categorize it in the "wait for" category ...you know the versions and releases we have been waiting for over and over and over year in and year out :-)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2014/01/17/what-windows-9-must-do-to-avoid-flopping-like-windows-8/

winter

@RottenApple
It is generally useless to argue with someone who does not want to look at your argumenys or documents. But I will make two general points about a specific area where MS software has proven to be crap:

- The complete AV industry exists to wrap security around bad design decissions of MS

- Windows is the only OS that requires a firewall on a consumer desktop. The design decissions behind that wrapper are harebrained stupid.

- An email client that runs executable attachments?

AndThisWillBeToo

@baron99/duke/John Waclawsky
Successful troll was successful. Fine. Enjoy.
Now please STFU, people are trying to have a conversation here.

@Sihtoo
Those were official Nokia reported numbers. And for sake of the argument let's assume that Elop Effect was so devastating that ALL Symbian phones sold after it were Nokia 523X's. In 2011 Nokia sold 76 million Symbian phones. 24 million of them in first Q. Tomi has said that Nokia was going to increase its sales from Q4 2010 (28 million) to Q1 2011 before Feb 11th hit. So around 11 million was sold before Feb 11th, leaving rest of the year 65 million 523X's. Of 150 million units sold 85 million were sold between Q4 2009 and Feb 11th 2011. Total Symbian sales of the time is around 130 million units.

EVEN THEN it means 50% of Nokia's sales were 523X's.

RottenApple

@baron99:

Regarding the first Forbes article, that's again perfect FUD. So, don't install the system updates and you won't get any further system updates. Sounds somewhat reasonable to me to build each update on the last one. Do it differently and suddenly you have 10 instead of 4 OS versions to support. Of course this got blown out of proportion by the press.

As for the second one, many of those criticisms have already been addressed by the Windows 8.1 update a few months ago. No, Metro hasn't suddenly become good but at least it has become somewhat manageable for desktop users. Let's see if they can improve on it, but since the big problem is not one of technology but of app distribution it all won't matter. As long as the app store cannot distribute desktop apps the same way as Metro apps it's all useless.

@winter:

Yeah, more FUD about security. I'm just waiting for the day when Macs get hit big by some malware. I don't think it's a question of 'if' but just 'when'. I find it so funny that so many Mac and Linux users so revel in their system's supposed 'safety' that they don't take any precautions. Tell me what you want but that's just an open invitation for the bad guys to find and exploit some security flaw in those systems. Especially Mac users are a very, very desirable group for internet criminals so they'll become a prime target by default.

Most of the security problems in Windows come from users running the system in administrator mode (and of course UAC switched off) which is just foolhardy but bad habits die hard.

And what email client? Do you mean the one I never used? Sorry, I'm not informed in that matter because I think in one point we are in full agreement: Never use Microsoft software to access the internet. Too dangerous.

@Leebase:

"Looking forward to what Google announces soon. Clearly the latest Samsung S5 is doing nothing to stop their decline at the high end, and apparently none of the other Android phones are stepping in to pick up the slack. It seems clear that Android itself has become a low and mid range price platform."

Since Apple apparently also hasn't done anything terrific with the iPhone 5S I'd rather ask myself where the premium segment as a whole is heading. One thing's clearly obvious: The average user doesn't need these overpriced and overpowered phones anymore, the only way to still sell them is with price fixed long term contracts that hide the real costs - or to gamers whose wallets are notoriously loose just to get the latest and greatest. The sole reason for its existence is gaming, nothing else needs that much computing power in a mobile phone.
I expect to see this segment lose a lot of relevance in the coming years and it wouldn't surprise me if Apple is eventually left as the only one who has something to offer here. The question, though, is, whether that is sustainable. Certainly not at current market share rates.
So in this case I have to concur with Tomi: Apple eventually needs to step out of the premium segment


AndThisWillBeToo

Sorry, 65%. 85/130.

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