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February 04, 2014

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zlutor

@Tomi: "In Finland we have this saying 'syon hattuni..' which means 'I will eat my hat if' " - here we have the same saying (word-by-word!) meaning exactly the same! Fin-Hun brothership for presidente! ;-)

AndThisWillBeToo

"Android won because Nokia forfeited, not because it was so great. Had Nokia in that climate released something decent they would have won by default"

WHOA!
So when Android grew neck to neck with Symbian in 2010 (reported by Tomi, check his Q4 2010 OS market shares) we had Android increasing 5 to 6 POINTS of percentage per QUARTER (for consecutive quarters even) and Symbian losing equal share. Symbian^3 phones were sold for over a quarter and still the lines crossed. No MeeGo phone was out to fix it. Android was already taking the crown of largest OS. Did February 11th affect year 2010 retroactively and cause it?

Give me ONE reason why any sane developer was going to develop Qt apps to target smaller share of new devices (and declining) instead of higher share of new devices (and increasing). Especially since Nokia did not allow Qt on Android support?
One.

zlutor

@Tomi: "Microsoft doesn't need at all to make the handset unit profitable now, nor to make the featurephone business succeed or to serve the poorest customer segments. They need Lumia to grow. They need Windows Phone to grow"

What about their services (Bing, Skydrive, etc.)? I think WP is just a platform for using it, isn't it? To some extent it is not (should not be) so relevant for M$ their services is used from where...

On the other hand PR damage could be seen bigger than benefit of earning couple of extra market share.
On the other hand I still hope there is some sisu left up-on-the-North- and the Finn guys will release it before M$ takes the things really over... ;-)

RottenApple

@AndThisWillBeToo:

Yes, Android grew because Nokia had nothing to compete with.
Symbian was mostly uncompetetive as we all know. But Nokia still had a massive market share of very loyal customers back then that would have easily been converted to a Symbian successor. Only when Nokia finally changed gears and went with WP it was over and Android had no obstacles left.

People chose Android, not because it was so great but because it was the only realistic alternative to iOS which was out of most people's league.

"Give me ONE reason why any sane developer was going to develop Qt apps to target smaller share of new devices (and declining) instead of higher share of new devices (and increasing). Especially since Nokia did not allow Qt on Android support?"

Why shouldn't they? Back in 2010 when all this started Nokia was still far bigger than Android, aside from America this was the platform that still ruled most of the world, so why shouldn't developers jump onto it? Had things gone undisturbed they would have won a lot of customers. You are again making the mistake judging the past with present knowledge. Nokia wasn't a tiny upstart with measly market share, they were the leader in mobile, it would have been a significant market segment, even if they had fallen further to 20-25% market share. Nokia was so important back then (outside America, again!) that many developers were forced to do J2ME versions of their software to get at least some support for the Symbian platform because the native tools were so bad. Of course all of these developers would joyfully jump onto the Qt train - finally a decent way to develop for Nokia!

I have been there, I had all of these discussions and although I wasn't personally involved in any Qt project, the Feb'11 announcement was like a major earthquake destroying a lot of investment for my past employer who had to scrap several projects - some mere days before completion - they never did any WP7 development as a result.

AndThisWillBeToo

@RottenApple
I'm not talking about any US only numbers. I'm using GLOBAL stats from this blog. Go back and check, these are numbers Tomi has reported:

Q2 2010
Android 18%
Symbian 44%
(Nokia 39%)

Q3 2010
Android 25%
Symbian 36%
(Nokia 33%)

Q4 2010
Android 30%
Symbian 32%
(Nokia 28.5%)

are you suggesting that without jump to Windows Phone the trend was going to magically change in Q1 2011 where Nokia was not introducing new models (save expensive E7) and MeeGo had already been delayed to second half of 2011?

I know Nokia killed Qt development with their announcement. I'm sorry for those who worked with Qt in Feb 2011. My friend asked me the very Friday if I knew anything about Silverlight. He was experimenting with WP app already same weekend. Whatever he was doing with Qt Feb 10th was not moving anywhere after Feb 12th.

RottenApple

@AndThisWillBeToo:

"are you suggesting that without jump to Windows Phone the trend was going to magically change in Q1 2011 where Nokia was not introducing new models (save expensive E7) and MeeGo had already been delayed to second half of 2011?"

No idea. But with MeeGo and a decent Symbian upgrade it might have happened. Nokia lost market share because the then current Symbian versions were really getting old.
And as we all know, with WP they completely self-destructed. Of the three options they had (MeeGo, Android or WP) this was the suicide option - the one that was guaranteed to fail in any case.

But it's irrelevant for this discussion. Nokia had massive market share in many countries, many loyal customers who were just waiting for Nokia to release something competetive, why leave those at the side with app development?
Back then it would have been a significantly better proposition for developers to do Qt/Symbian/MeeGo, than it is to do WP even now.

Devs do WP for two reasons only: Either they get paid by Microsoft to do so or adding a WP version is not much work - with the project I'm working on it's just fallout from having done an Android/iOS version with a cross platform framework that also supports WP, so it'll amount to 3 or 4 days of added work to make sure that the system specific things get handled. If it had been necessary to fully port the app we would've gladly passed.
With Nokiabyck in 2010 holding ~30% of the market such considerations would be foolhardy, any self-respecting developer would love to get to 90% market support.

zlutor

@AndThisWillBeToo: "since Nokia did not allow Qt on Android support" - does Necessitas ring the bell? Made by one person as hobby but that is an other story...

Qt was open source and Nokia did let anybody using it - and it is in use in fact on myriads of platforms (desktop, embedded and now mobile, too). There were Nokia specific packages but still open for anyone...

AndThisWillBeToo

@zlutor
and if you wanted to make real business, you would have stuck with the Qt SDK + paid support. Necessitas in there? No.

zlutor

@AndThisWillBeToo: "if you wanted to make real business, you would have stuck with the Qt SDK + paid support" - what does it do with "Nokia did not allow Qt on Android support"?

Did Nokia provided paid support for all desktop and embedded platform being supported at that time? I guess no and still it was used for commercial products.

E.g. GNU C++ compiler is open source, there is no paid support - as I know - and it is used in many, even mission critical, products.

Not to mention, in case everything goes mad, there is the source code out there for open source stuff and you still have some hope to make the (quick)fix.

With closed stuff - just wait for your request/bug report to be scheduled into correction pipeline of solution provider...

Sam

"Elop the cancer" - fucking lol

Biker Leather Jackets

These numbers are astounding.......

Didn't think that Samsung was #1

VB6 programming

Can you now bring back the VB6 programming language.
It is still one of Microsoft's most popular languages, despite you ignoring it for the last 12 years.
See http://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio/suggestions/3440221-bring-back-classic-visual-basic-an-improved-versi

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