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« Understanding OTT - Why Carriers dislike BBM, hate iMessage and fear Skype (updated) | Main | The 'I Wish I Had Known This' List about 101 Things Wrong With Windows Phone Smartphones Like Nokia Lumia »

May 10, 2012

Comments

Peter

@cycnus

If we go with your courtroom analogy, then Tomi acts as a prosecutor that puts words in the mouth of the defendant (Elop). He simply can't make assumptions based on those and claim that they are therefore true. I criticize Tomi because I feel the way he acts is just plain wrong. I also hate the current situation the Nokia is in, I'm a proud owner of N9 and I hate the fact they discarded it -such a waste of potential- but it still does not approve what Tomi is doing.

I'm sorry but I've no idea what do you mean with your conversation.nokia.com sentence.

My apologies also to Peter Elgin, sorry for stealing your sexy name.

vladkr

@Kirill:
As you don't want to waste your time in making comments about E.Murtazin or reading his articles, here's a quick sum-up:

On Feb 13, 2011: He wrote that Nokia would be destroyed within two years, and that Samsung would take the lead.

May 3rd, 2011: WP7 is a fail, so WP8 will

June 28th, 2011: Plans of TeliaSonera to charge extras for mobile internet use... okay Skype wasn't clearly mentioned

and so on...

These predictions appeared to be right, and it can be easily double-checked.

He made some mistakes also, such as underestimating problems between Skype and operators (may 17th 2011), though the issue was already mentioned.

His overall record is not that bad; his Russian... well, I won't judge as Russian is not my main language.


However, I can understand you; Nokia is not the first company where executives lie to their workers.

I used to work for French defence companies and not only once directors, VPs or CEO denied sayings published in the press, that appeared to be true afterwards.

Believe it or not, but press was better informed than average workers, and that happens in many companies. Strangely, workers have usually more reproaches against the press than to their bosses.

J. Aho

@Tomi
I guess Nokia needs an "enemy" to blame things on, your blog is a good "reason" why it's going so bad for them, you have been critical against the CEO and the "brilliant" idea of having all the eggs in the same broken basket.

I guess John has problem with his Finnish and his skills to use web tools like google translate may not be good enough to translate the HS article into English. I'm quite sure during his days at Dell he was indoctrinated that there was just one company who made good software, so there can't be any fault in that company's actions, so there is only one reason why Nokia is loosing market shares... (Gosh, I didn't know I knew people who has met him in RL, I hope they didn't get infected)

I do look forward to see those new Bada/Tizen based cellphones...

Vlad

Mobile Review is the 1st mobile phone source. It has everything. First. Fastest. Maybe because Russian Maffia connections - and yes illegally disclosing NDA. But.. I was surprised (1) he doesnt like Nokia (2) you are mocking the guy behind the 1st mobile review site.

Here in Russia nobody even talks about Nokia. In Moscau the electronic bill-boards have been taken down. Its Samsung and Ipod allover.

Retards,
Vlad

Spawn

About Elop: When Elop announced the Windows Phone Strategy he also did say that first Meego will not be finished in time. Second that that therd are to less Meego phones produced.
What happened is that first the Meego N9 was on market before Lumia. Second there where 2 Meego phones, the N9 and the N950, before the 2 Lumia.
That alone already tells us that Elop is lying from the very beginning. I doubt there ever was a fire on any platform before he moved to a Windows Phone only strategie. I think Microsoft did saw that Meego is going to be a success, the 3th mobile ecosystem. I think Elop killing that was in the best interest of Microsoft but not of Nokia. I think Elop works for Microsoft and not for Nokia.

The wall street connection: How does wall street profit from Nokia dying? I do not understand that part. Could please someone enlight me.

Titanium

@Spawn To answer at your question, consider that:
Wall street is America, Nokia is (was) Europe. Killing or reducing to slave nokia (at the time N° 1 mobile company) means shifting the a big piece of mobile market from europe to america.
And the mobile market is the fastest growing market today. At the same time the PC market (owned by america) is narrowing, so they (America) are replacing PC market with mobile market WITH ANY MEANS.

Spawn

The Twitter case: I followed the discussion. Lets ignore the both Nokia communication trolls before. What the troll director of Nokia communications did was:
1. Accused Tomi to lie. Tomi would make up facts that are fiction.
2. Tomi asked what part of the super long blog is lying. He asked to pinpoint one lie. One only.
3. Nokia says its not there job to prove what is wrong. Imagine this. First Nokia accusses you of lying and when tou ask what you did ly about they refuse to answer!
4. More wirse. Tomi asks again and now the answer is that everything is wrong, a ly. Now they do not reject an answer but just say EVERYTHING, every single word you ever wrote is wrong.

Nokia, through its Troll director of communication, fails like I never saw a company failing before. That is more worse then Dell Hell and Sony rootkit together.

On a sidenote: Its not the action of a single Nokia Troll. Remember that this went up the Nokia-hierachy 3 levels. Every level became more trollisg, more abusive, more unprofessional. You can only guess what kind of person Elop himself is if it continues like that.

Tomi T Ahonen

First, to all in the thread

I had somewhat an epiphany moment today. That Finnish saying 'se koira alahtaa, johon kalikka kalahtaa' that JJ mentioned here (ie translated, that dog yelps, who gets hit by the stick that was thrown) was also mentioned a couple of other times by random chance recently. And it suddenly hit me earlier today. I think I now know why this strange sudden tag-team attack against me.

You guys know I've been hypercritical of Elop for over a year. I've called him a criminal, he should be investigated, he should be fired as CEO, he should be sued, he should get a lifetime ban from holding any corporate officer position etc... And never has any Nokia PR person reacted in even the mildest way. Not on TW, not here on the blog, not privately in email or any other medium. None of my moles or friends near those people has ever passed any private messages etc.

Now this squabble is quite trivial in that context, I mean, previously I have called for lawsuits against Elop and called for both New York and Helsinki stock exchange investigations for breach of fiduciary duty etc. Now I only informed my readers that its quite stunning that Elop admits the carriers are reluctant to sell Lumia due to Skype. In the scale of nasty thing to call Mr Elop, it is some of the mildest lightest issues I have ever raised, isn't it?

But - that Finnish saying.. Which dog did yelp? Obviously not John Pope, I had never heard of him before. He is the mouthpiece. So what was so different this time? This time - I think for the first time - I caught Elop admitting in public, that the Skype purchase of Microsoft is damaging not only Nokia Lumia, but also other Windows Phone smartphone sales. So Elop is now caught saying that apparently Ballmer has made a mistake !

Its Ballmer who is furious now. I was thinking of the dog that yelps. I was looking at those press articles in this first edition of Electronic Echoes and then it came togeher. Now Ballmer is upset, because the press are now starting to say his Windows Phone (and/or Windows 8) strategy is failing with Nokia, due to Skype. He is angry, he hates it that Elop made this goof, and now Elop feels the pain and pushes his marketing people to go end this story..

Except that if John Pope accuses me of fabricating Elop quotes - that I didn't do - and cannot show anywhere on my blogs where I had done that - he is now slandering not only me, but also this blog. He is threatening my credibility which means my livelihood too. That means of course I will not stop digging into these Electronic Echoes and any other issues around Skype, Microsoft, Nokia and the people involved. So if the purpose was to shut Tomi up, he achieved the exact opposite haha...

But yeah, what do you guys think, sound reasonable? Is this now behind the scenes, that Ballmer is furious at Elop for revealing how badly Ballmer's Windows Phone project is failing?

I'll think about it, dig for some facts and info, and develop it into an upcoming update to this story.

Tomi Ahonen :-)

tg

smart operators vs. not so smart opeators.

Why Skype might help, not hurt, Windows Phone and Nokia with carriers http://shar.es/2ykrs via @sharethis

"In that case, carriers would favor Windows Phone over other smartphones because it would be the only operating system that generates revenue from Skype, rather than having Skype take away carrier revenue."

So how many users does skype have?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skype#Usage_and_traffic

Q3 2011 663 milliom user accounts


and

http://gigaom.com/2011/05/09/why-microsoft-is-buying-skype-for-8-billion/

> Skype gives Microsoft a boost in the enterprise collaboration market, thanks to Skype’s voice, video and sharing capabilities, especially when competing with Cisco and Google.
> It gives Microsoft a working relationship with carriers, many of them looking to partner with Skype as they start to transition to LTE-based networks.
> It would give them a must-have application/service that can help with the adoption of the future versions of Windows Mobile operating system.
> However, the biggest reason for Microsoft to buy Skype is Windows Phone 7 (Mobile OS) and Nokia. The software giant needs a competitive offering to Google Voice and Apple’s emerging communication platform, Facetime.

Skype may have more users than Facebook.


Tomi T Ahonen

Ok now more replies

Hi sepi, Peter, vladkr, Luca, Kaien, Kirill and Alin

sepi - thanks. Its the kind of info difficult to pick up, when reading English-language coverage and not living in Finland

Peter - fine, i see what you are arguing in your comment. I see it, Peter. But now you took Elop out of context. He was not making a statement - he was answering a question. If the question asked about how to resolve a problem, and the person explicitly stated the problem is in distribution, that operators do not want to sell Lumia because of Skype - then the context of Elop's words changes. When Elop says íts 'as you correctly say' and then says some operators are not selling Lumia - that is an admission that that yes, there is that specific problem that Mika Hasanen stated. The context of Elop's words is a responses and cannot be taken in isolation without the question that was asked.

I do see what you did, I do see that if taken individually, you can distort the meaning. I am guessing, you and I will never see eye-to-eye on this but so far as i have seen, independent journalists and bloggers who have reviewed that recording, have concluded - and written - that Elop admitted the problem exists - and in cases of our arguments, they tend to accept Ahonen was correct. Not always, but in preponderence of cases. But I see your point and if taken only by those sentences, yes, it is a valid view. Except these were not part of a spontaneous Elop statement, they were in reply to a question by a shareholder and must be seen in that light.

As to Nokia's attacks on me, if they had said that Tomi is distorting the view or something like that, I'd be fine. Their view and mine. But you know what John Pope said. He said I was fabricating Elop quotations. I have not fabricated one quotation about Elop. Every single Elop quotation is here in full (as full as available when I originally posted). I have then taken some of his statements apart, to analyze them further. But every quotation is posted in full context, so any reader can read the full passage (as it existed on the date I originally posted).

valdkr - great stats and data from Russia, thanks for the digging !

Luca - thanks, I appreciate that. I also think that in case of legal slander the matter is far more severe. Even more so, when done in the function of an official corporate spokesperson such as this Director of Communications. I do think if I recruited one of my former debaters (current attorneys in New York City) to write an attorney's letter to Nokia HQ, we'd get an apology rather quickly from not just John Pope but his boss, who I think is Jerri DeVard. Nokia does not need the negative publicity of lawsuits, far less those that it caused out of provoking an old author-dude and ex-employee haha.. But lets see, this story smells quite a lot, so this could be worth digging for a while too haha.. as John Pope obviously understands fully how his 'Social Media Strategy for Nokia' is now being served by this negative chatter on this blog, on TW and across the virtual space.

As to pride, haha, I remember what pride I had for having one of the first N93 models of the UK, long before most of my colleagues had them in Finland etc.. I was not that proud of this E7 I now carry..

Kaien - good point. Yes. I am not asking for an apology because someone was calling me an idiot or foolish or mistaken etc. I do take it seriously that John Pope accused me of falsifying Elop statements, using Pope's word 'fabricating' the quotes. If he accuses me of falsifying quotes by Elop - that is deliberate lying - a very severe accusation for anyone who works as an expert, author and lecturer. That accusation has to be retracted fully (or haha, John Pope has to show where in those blogs I quoted Elop incorrectly). This issue will never end, and will keep getting worse for Nokia HQ until that accusation is retracted fully and Pope has apologized to me in public. It will happen, certainly. They are too smart to know this can only get worse the longer they wait.

Kirill - thanks. I'll bet you a beer/drink that Pope will apologize in public haha.. I agree with your categorization and (see above previous posting about my suspicions why this is happening) probably each of the 3 Nokia PR people were ordered to come and fight with me. This almost certainly comes directly from Elop. And I would not be surprised to hear later from some of my contacts, that they privately apologize for the bullying tactics now used by Elop. But that doesn't matter, John Pope stepped over a very dangerous line when he disparaged my professional credentials, my integrity. That is actionable. I could sue them, Pope and Nokia, tomorrow. Any personal libel attorney would take the case, its pretty blatant, the guy posts under his own name, on Twitter, and uses a Nokia associated name too. This would be a severely inconvenient lawsuit with potentially high visibility, you know, perfect David vs Goliath lawsuit, huge corporate giant tries to destroy life of elderly university lecturer and tech author. Would not look good..

Alin - thanks !!!!

More replies soon

Tomi Ahonen :-)

Alin

@Tomifan, if I was Tomi I would have done even more! Remembee, Tomi lives from the name he had built in this industrie! What Nokia PR did is a person attack, is very easy for nokia to 'destroy' Tomi saying lies about him. That's why any person would insist to get proves of what hi lied about nokia, but those proves does not exists, and nokia knows that, that's why nokia did a REALY BAD THING today. I am a nokia fan and Symbian/MeeGo developer, but I will not support nokia anymore if it continues like that.

CN

@Tomi

In the beginning of the blog you are 100% sure (again) that Elop didn't know you've been "attacked". Now you say these "PR Nazis", as you call them, got their instructions to attack directly from Elop.

Would you please clarify this a bit, so that we understand what really has happened?

tg

The number of Skype-to-Skype call minutes totaled 36.1 billion in the final three months of 2009.
Skype users made more the 250 billion minutes worth of Skype-to-Skype calls from the time the service was launched through the end of 2009.
Skype in 2009 accounted for 12 percent of the world’s international calling minutes, a 50 percent increase over 2008 when it accounted for 8 percent of international calling, according to TeleGeography Research.
36 percent of Skype-to-Skype calls as of the end of the fourth quarter included video — in other words, Skype is going to figure prominently in the video conferencing business, challenging more established players with its no-cost solution. Skype CEO Josh Silverman in a guest post for GigaOM explained why he views video as the future of Skype.
Here are some other random Skype stats:

At peak times, 23 million users are logged into Skype (as of March 2010).
Skype is available in 29 languages and is used in almost every country around the world.
35 percent of Skype users utilize it for business purposes.

Tomi T Ahonen

And more replies

Hi PeterE, vladkr, cygnus, Kirill, Peter and Tomifan

PeterE - shame you feel you need to change your nickname here, Peter, we have enjoyed your comments for years. But hello full name Peter Elgin, so nice to meet you and I am confident you never again need to change your nickname haha..

Now a few thoughts about Ollila. I remember your earlier comments and I think you'll remember I was reluctant to agree on his collusion, ie I would tend to defend Ollila. What now emerged from the Nokia Shareholders' Meeting (there are several other issues I still need to blog about, this is one of them) is that Ollila admitted he had supported the Windows project before it was announced and perhaps it was Ollila or Elop who said the Windows project had been secretly in development for considerable amount of time before Feb 11, 2011. That is a major change from what was commonly understood and it implicates Ollila far more deeply into the Microsoft changeover and end of MeeGo. But I am very tired now, I dont remember exactly what it was he was quoted as saying etc. Anyway, wanted to mention, I have now grown far more closer to your point of view.. :-)

vladkr - thanks. I also monitor Eldar's site and news from time to time, more the English translation version than the original haha.

cygnus - thanks my friend!

Kirill - thats interesting, thanks (Nokia HQ seeing the MS cooperation well befor e it was announced). And I appreciate your endorsement of my analysis and observations. I can't get it right all the time obviously, but there are parts that make a lot of sense, you can kind of predict - like current problems relating to Skype. Then there are other things that are surprising that one has to study, like why now suddenly all out of the blue, Nokia PR department starts to attack me, for something that seems relatively harmless about Elop's statements haha..

Peter - hey, don't worry about the name, but beware if you want to hang round here for long, someone else might appear and take that name from you, so you might want to add some gimmick to it.. But yeah, about my courtroom tactics. I hear you and I can see that I can be what probably would be seen as a very aggressive attorney haha.. I do stand by my text, I did quote every time Elop in full, not only a snippet, so my readers can read at some point his full statement, then I take it apart. I think that is fair, because anyone can go compare what I did, to the original, to see if I have stepped over the line and used his words out of context. But yes, I am sure if it was a court room, the defense attorney would several times tried to 'object' haha and I would be cutting it close.

Tomifan - I do understand and I agree if that happened to me, I'd be upset. But I think it did not happen like that. I did not 'only' take a snippet of Elop's reply, like say a bad TV news show uses a clearly out-of-context sound bite. I deliberately posted the full Elop response from beginning to end, plus the full question as asked. That way my readers can see the full context. Then I think it is totally valid to examine a paragraph-length reply covering several issues, to divide the passage into individual shorter texts. I am not hiding Elop's full text, I offer it for contrast, to let my readers see that I have taken Elop's words - and very importantly - the question itself - into full context correctly.

So for example, Tomifan. The stockholder, Mika Hasanen asked how will Nokia resolve problems that this guy Mika felt were in distribution, because operators did not want to sell Windows Phone. That is the question. If to that question, Elop answers 'as you correctly say' if operator doesn't the phone, they don't take it. That means Elop has explicitly accepted that Mika was correct - Elop says so that he was correct - in that there are operators not willing to sell Lumia. It was not just Elop giving a statement at a press conference, reading a statement. he was answering a question and thus the question and answer form the appropriate context.

But I understand your point and I recall what you wrote at the other blog article (I am quite far from getting to respond to it, but hope to soon)

So I understand what you feel I did. And because there are short snippets taken from the full paragraph, I can see you also feel the evidence is there, that I cut his words into short pieces. Yes, I did that. But I did not do a 'hatchet job' on Elop's words taking them out of context. I believe I have been very honest to keep each snippet exactly in context, or using a few selected phrases (or reminding of the question) so never is Elop out of context in those shorter passages - and to ensure this is clear to my readers, the full text is there for comparison. I think I am going FAR beyond what most would do, to ensure this is beyond dispute.

Ok, more replies soon

Tomi Ahonen :-)

ejvictor

I love this blog <3!

Tomi is a little mental- in a good way- but he does have some unique aspects to his blog. 1) CDB is not a news or review blog. So in no way is CDB reliant to be in the good graces of OEM’s to get review units, or “the scoop”. 2) Unlike many bloggers Tomi actually has telecoms management experience, and CDB isn’t just a Nokia fan run site, or internet journalism. 3) The only thing CDB “sells” is Tomi’s intellectual capital – no ad impressions, or affiliate sales.

Integrity is key in this business (blogging) and Nokia has disrupted the blogs as much as it has disrupted its own the business. I use to be a big fan of AAS-Rafe, Steve and Ewan set a “journalistic” standard for their blog. Stopped reading the site because Steve is the only “journalistic” voice left, Rafe has completely become an apologist for Nokia’s WP strategy – to the point that he has lost credibility in my eyes. MNB is more of a “scoop” site – Jay does a good job, but as a long time reader the change is clear. Jay relies on Nokia Corporate for review units, information, tips to drive site visits. MNB is a “safe” site for Nokia, but Jay doesn’t pretend MNB is a journalistic blog. Then we have Eldar…. Well let’s just say Elvis has left the building.

It amuses me that people are so polarized, hey it’s a blog, chill out, no one forces to read this at gunpoint. Tomi has strong opinions – he isn’t infallible – but he writes this blog like a book author, he remembers that he wrote about XYZ, in blog X 9 months ago and that it supports his argument now. So to the newbies, as you have figured out Tomi’s version of short is other blogs month of content, go back read some old posts, this sites content is very interrelated- just like the industry.

Obviously “Skype-gate” caused a stir somewhere up the Nokia/Microsoft food chain- that barking dog!? Releasing the tape to MNB and not addressing CDB directly was a strategic move, don’t know what AAS said, voted with my mouse and don’t visit the site anymore. Pope, he just looks like a pratt right now…. Loved his hashtag sooooo x-files, narf! Enjoy the good reads, comments and all – now group hug!

J. Aho

@Piot

Yes, Elop did answer in English, but HS wrote in Finnish and used as a source, then it would have been better to criticize the source Tomi used or tell him that he had misunderstood the meaning of the translated quotes.

diva

Tomi, you sound like a guy who is on the ropes, or a kid in school who didn't get picked for the team. And your response is to try to puff yourself up and attempt to look more important than you are?
First, you use waaaaaay too many words to communicate. The more words, the greater chance no one will read it and those who do will miss the point, if there is one. (Don't you employ an editor somewhere?)
These rambling diatribes, even if they had any actual news or facts, make you look like you are having a mental breakdown online. One can hear the nervous laughter between the lines.
It looks like Nokia has decided to walk away, as there is no logic or structure to your ramblings. You are the only one who still thinks anyone cares what you have to say. What a blowhard. A normal intelligent person would be embarrassed to have anyone fawn over them the way you fawn over yourself. Get over it. You are a has-been.
By the way, I thought you said name-calling and nastiness would not be tolerated on your site. Obviously you make an exception in your own case.

Kirill Zelenski

vladkr,
your first example of "prediction" made by him 13.02.2011 only confirms my opinion - he is reading Tomi (just check Tomi's blog february2011) and others and then says it as "own" forecast. it is his style, I saw this many times... all three cases mentioned by you are the same.

also, I dont speak about Nokia bosses told to workers true or not, I speak generally. Nokia+Microsoft cooperation was widerly known and discussing in NokiaHouse already in september 2010, many people did resign following Anssi and against this politic... it wasnt so unpredictable - we were waiting only exact anounce time.

Sander van der Wal

That Ollila and the other board members were part of the decision to move to Windows, and that such a move could not be kept secret until there would be a phone to release, has been argued on this blog to by several posters. And this means that the problems with Symbian and MeeGo were very severe, that the board was completely aware of those facts, and that they acted on that knowledge before it became obvious in the publicly released figures.

The figth about who said what might appear to be entertaining (it is not, imho), but the important thing is the argument how Nokia got into this trouble, and whether this could have been seen by looking at the figures.

PeterL

Hi Tomi and thank you for answering to my comment.


I think you are overthinking the exact wordings way too much. The answer can be interpreted as easily to be only for the latter portion of the question, about Skype eating operator revenue and the carriers wanting to block Skype completely, because those are the _only_ issues he discusses in his answer. Nevertheless, even if he would’ve admitted clearly without any room for questions that “Yes, we have a reseller problem because operators hate us for having Skype in the future” the actual consequences (like the effective ongoing global reseller boycott you claim) of the problem was never discussed in even tiniest detail. Therefore everything you say about that matter is just your own speculation and you absolutely can’t attribute Elop admitting any of those based on this answer! And even if many people should agree with you, it still does not make it true. I could as easily say with your logic that Elop admitted that Skype is not a big of a deal as the operators actually want to discuss about the future of the Skype. Hell, given the trend of Net Neutrality laws appearing and being prepared around the globe, it doesn’t even sound that implausible.


And where on Earth do you even hear Elop saying explicitly that operators are not selling Lumia??? That’s definitely something only you can hear, because that simply does not occur in the video. It is exactly claims like these that made people from Nokia angry in the first place. And while we are talking about people from Nokia confronting you, John Pope never said you were fabricating Elop quotations! I’ve no idea where do you get that one; it’s been said to you so many times now it’s baffling that you still keep going about it. He actually said exactly what you say would’ve been fine, that you are distorting the truth. Here, look at his tweets that started the whole thing:


"@tomiahonen That’s it? More FUD? At least now people can see first-hand how you fabricate bogus ‘admissions.’ #factsvsfiction"

"@tomiahonen And people can see how you make up your own ‘facts.’ #factsvsfiction"

"@tomiahonen We take issue w/ the 30 times you stated Elop "admitted" something. 30 errors."

"@tomiahonen You don’t get it. It’s not one single quote but the way you played ‘admit’ card."


Right after his first tweet (the top one) you immediately jumped on him about accusations of misquoting and just never let go. Where exactly do you see him doing the things you claim him of doing??? Go on, point it for us, because we really can’t see it anywhere. He does not say anywhere that you have misquoted Elop and even tries to explain it several times, but you don’t seem to hear that at all.


The comments to this entry are closed.

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