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February 25, 2014

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Earendil Star

Why must we listen to the same BS again and again? Endless lies? Over and over again? Wal? Wal?

That Maemo / Meego was ready and had no major issues is fact. Phones sold and were appreciated since 2009. Were they perfect? No. As no phone is perfect. iPhones have glitches. I've seen some overheating or loose signal when touched in a particular way, or their fingerprint reader was faulty. Galaxy phones have glitches. What about WP7? It could not even connect to the Internet, as the Lumia 900 debacle witnessed. Should we call this a showstopper? Ah, I forgot. The term only applies to non MS platforms.

MS never shied from issuing half baked products, and treating its customers as slave debuggers. Vista, anyone? Yet, these people criticizing Memo/Meego so fiercely, never spent a word on WP. Never. Despite its major shortcomings vs any other platform. Wal? Wal? Mmmh... what is your vested interest then?

Let's go back in time: OPK was rightly fired for being unable to turn the Nokia ship around. Everyone hoped for a new CEO, who could help solve the execution mess, and cut the bloat. Unfortunately, the Nokia board decided to quit the game and left the helm to MS, following which THTRH Flop was appointed and the rest is history.

Actually, it is almost incredible that, in such an environment, Maemo/Meego could become a discrete success, despite the efforts by the new Redmond masters to cull it as soon as possible. Do not forget that Maemo/Meego was actively hindered and sabotaged by the top. It was not an OS that was being promoted by a supportive management. It was a nuisance that had to be removed asap to make space for the cuckoo in Nokia's nest: WP. Yet Maemo/Meego had its glory moments. Now gone.

Now it's X time. It's when MS is doing what Nokia should have done back in 2010 (along with supporting Meego).
Creating an Android phone, a phone with the OS that, unlike WP, really allows for differentiation.
That makes it possible to develop one's own ecosystem. An ecosystem that, unlike WP, would have funnelled profits to Nokia, not MS. But if Nokia had done so, we would now live in a very different world. With no WPs. With Nokia still alive and kicking. Not the world Ballmer and Elop wanted, as histort showed.

Alb

@Sander: I guess we have been moving in different circles in the dev community.
About QT, yes it was not there from long time but it was the corner stone for migration path from old Symbian to new Meego (when ready). After the killing of Sybiam and co, all that was gone. So I think my point still stands.

eduardom

Off topic: arstechnica tests Samsung Tizen phone, likes it

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/02/hands-on-with-samsungs-tizen-os-a-impressively-capable-android-clone/

eduardom

Two writers who think Microsoft is going to keep Android X

http://www.zdnet.com/why-microsoft-may-keep-not-kill-nokias-new-android-phones-7000026690/

http://stratechery.com/2014/nokia-x/

tz

Revenge. If they licensed Android and it contains a non-sue-over-patent cross-licensing agreement, Microsoft will either have to bow out or swallow a poison pill.

As to Jolla - check out the hiccups with the original Lumia running WP7. But Jolla is fixable.

N9

@LeeBase. Stop trolling. You know exactly why there are not more Meego apps and no phones from other vendors. Because it was killed by Elop. The N9 shows that Meego was ready.

zlutor

@Wayne Borean: "Elop does say that Android devs can bring their apps to Nokia X - only takes a few extra hours dev work"

We (https://www.facebook.com/ForFictionMobile) have already published some of our Qt based apps for Nokia X in Ovi Store - ported to Android some time ago - yesterday without any modification needed...

So, it just works in practice.

Spawn

I can confirm zlutor's take on portability knowing a few devs have published there Qt-apps for NokiaX already.

For N9:
@LeeBase "I know people who know people who read that N9 was a desktop, not a smartphone"
Jesus, can you please not waste space in the internet with that kind of foolish statements? At least please TRY to keep a minimum levl of quality, okay?

R

A couple issues with Tomi's post.

Maemo and MeeGo were never entirely open source. Much of the infrastructure was open, but some crucial device drivers were never open, because the chip makers are asshats about open source, and various parts of the UI were never open, because Nokia believes in withholding stuff for competitive reasons. That's part of why it took Jolla so long to release a beta: They had to rewrite the UI from scratch again.

It's hard to say exactly how well the Nokia X series will be received. It's true that Nokia should have gone Android as soon as it was clear that Windows Phone was failing. Now that they have released Android, these are pathetic Android. They have 512MB of RAM like the Lumia 520, but the Lumia reviews as smooth while Android reviews as jerky with those specs. My own 512MB phone was constantly closing apps, and it was running Android 2.3, not a variant of 4.1. Now that I have a flagship phone (Moto X with 2GB of RAM), I have a much better experience.

Nokia is not (yet?) releasing any flagship Androids. From the released specs, the Nokia XL looks especially pathetic, with the same power and screen resolution as the Nokia X+, but probably without as much battery life. The only technical advantage is the front-facing camera for video calls.


On a going forward basis, Nokia's approach to Android looks like a challenge. The AOSP stuff will be up to date, but Nokia is currently years behind on reverse-engineering the Google services and providing Microsoft-powered replacements. In particular, Android 4.4, which was just released, is especially optimized to run well on 512MB of RAM. Will it take another 1 1/2 years for Micro-Nokia to release an Android-based system that works well on these phones? (Based on how long it took from Google's Android 4.1 release to now shipping Nokia-modified Android 4.1.) Or will Microsoft cancel it? It's hard to say.


In other, slightly related news, Microsoft Office is finally in the process of becoming available on touch and mobile platforms. It turns out that one of their problems is being tightly coupled to an idiosyncratic interpretation of the Windows API, and it's a major engineering effort to rewrite Office to work even in Metro mode in Windows 8. Once that's done, though, everybody better watch out. That's another interesting thing to observe.

Wayne Borean


R I,

Microsoft Office on touch screens? That could really hurt Microsoft. Yes, not having it is hurting Microsoft, this is a lose/lose proposition. Microsoft's most profitable division is the one containing Office. Problem is you can't charge a hundred dollars for a touch screen office suite...

Wayne

Sander van der Wal

@Earendil Star

It's Van der Wal. And do take note that I never said anything at all about how good or applicable WP was, or was not. My concern is about people saying that Maemo/MeeGo was OK. It was not. And not because Elop said so, but because I have been told by people I trust and who were verifiably familiar with the situation. And then there was the bugs database.

Compare that to a bung of nicknames on a blog for reliability. But as you might have your reasons not to reveal your own name, you can still reveal the sources that led you to believe that MeeGo was ready.


@Alb

Nokia's strategy was to get lots of developers on board with the lure of Qt. They have been peddling that line starting in 2008. In 2011 it was clear that nobody was buying it. At that time it was well-known in the mobile developer community that iPhone apps brought in an order of magnitude more money that Symbian apps. Nokia had known about that in 2009, since they were asking developers about it.

Probably the MeeGo community did not know about that, not being able to release money-making apps. But everybody on Symbian, and also everybody on Palm and Windows Mobile, where very much aware of that fact.

foo

@Sander van der Wal

> Those are not showstoppers. A showstopper in a phone would be for instance a call that is always disconnected after one minute.

So, I'm curious: what were the real showstoppers in N9???

zlutor

@foo: "So, I'm curious: what were the real showstoppers in N9???"

From PR1.3, nothing. before that - well, there were "funny" issues here or there... :-)

But communit was always out there to help - and there were workarounds found usually. Not to mention anything else but the famous "// TODO: Uncomment when management makes up their minds" issue: http://bigbob.fun.free.fr/N9/Patch-to-enable-traffic-and-day-night-autoswitch-in-drive-for-N9-PR1.3.diff

Is similar thing possible for iOS/WP or Android? Maybe yes, if QML gets traction there, too... :-)

chithanh

@R
In the embedded Linux world, device drivers are often obtained from hardware vendors, not operating system vendors. And MeeGo had a full phone stack and working user interface. Claiming that MeeGo is not open source is like claiming that OpenWrt is not open source because Fonera made their commercial FON with proprietary bits on top of it.

Glenn David

I don't know what's going to be future of Nokia X as Microsoft is soon going to take Nokia under it but its a very late attempt from Nokia, i must say! N9 was a superb phone, no doubt!

qwazix

How about the bundled skype with free calls to landlines and mobiles for a month? How will that affect Nokia X sales?

N9

@Sander van der Wal
It is very simple: The N9 proves that Meego was ready. If it would not have been ready, there would have been complains after it was released that you cannot make a call, or it crashes all the time, or whatever. But (ignoring minor issues) it worked great and got really, really good reviews. No interpretation of a bug data base or hearsay from people you trust can change the simple fact which can easily be verified by reading reviews from that time.

We also had developers from Nokia speaking out in public:
http://felipec.wordpress.com/2011/06/21/my-disagreement-with-elop-on-meego/

Baron95

N9 proves nothing. It simply proves that Nokia can put out a Maemo phone with a swipe UI and call it Meego. It also proves that Nokia could put out another phone with no apps. Another phone with no ecosystem support. Another inch phone that only appeals to geeky open source guys.

End.

Where are the Meego devices from ALL the other Meego players (Intel, China Mobile, etc)?

Similarly where are the Tizen phones - which were Meego enhanced?

Nowhere. These geeky open source projects always go nowhere.

It takes a Google, an Apple, a Microsoft, an Amazon to put out a mobile computer OS/Ecosystem that has even a half a chance. Nokia can't do it even in a million years. Intel can't do it. Samsung can't do it. DoCoMo can't do it.

Why can't you get this through your head?

The N9 may be a nice device. The BB N10/Q10 is a nice device. But no one wants to buy them because they have no apps and no ecosystem.

What percentage of people in the world do you think want to go to forum to find, compile and side load apps and fixes to their phones.

Get a grip with reality.

You bought the "Meego is the Future" sucker line and lost. Move on.

Sander van der Wal

@foo

I do not know. When I looked into that database the N9 was not yet announced. And secondly, the database did not cover models, only software releases. What I have seen of the bugs in there correlated just fine with the business week article that describes why Elop killed MeeGo: too many bugs, and the number wasn't going down over time.

Point is, you van always release a device that has no showstoppers. Just remove the functionality that doesn't work. So the only proof that releasing a given device offers is that Nokia was able to create the N9. Apart from that it doesn't prove anything more. Not that meeGo was ready, and also not that MeeGo was seriously broken. For that one needs much better evidence. Which is the bugs database and the info my sources told me.

PoiFan

Meego was a very good platform, maybe even great. But that isn't really enough for success and it really wasn't "ready". They chose the wrong chipset partners in Intel and TI and wouldn't have LTE for well over a year after deploying. This turned off many of the big carriers from offering any real ($$) support at launch. QT was horribly delayed and in particular QT Mobility. The big successful app providers (not open source hobbiests) were busy with iOS, Android and wary of investing in new platforms after the PalmOS debacle. At least at this point Windows Phone had shipped and Microsoft was throwing cash at developers to mitigate the risk. I'm not defending Windows, it was not the right choice for Nokia either, they should have embraced Android. But Nokia's failure with both Ovi services and then building a modern smart phone OS showed they should have stuck to their strengths: hardware design and supply chain management.

Earendil Star

So, a phone is out, it works, owners are happy, yet this does not count.
Because a trusted friend told that an old version of Meego was full of "showstoppers".
So, if reality points to one truth and a story to something else, then let's believe in the story. Why? Because the concern was not saying "anything at all about how good or applicable WP was, or was not. My concern is about people saying that Maemo/MeeGo was OK." Why? Because you can't stand it? I believe this really tells it all.

One thing must be clear though. The issue here is: did Nokia have a suitable replacement for Symbian, that was years ahead of WP? Then the answer is yes. It had Maemo Harmattan with a Meego compatibility layer. Denying this is just making up stories and following the MS propaganda lies.

If instead we refer to the original Meego project, the one to replace Maemo, the one to work on Intel SoCs, well that may have had showstoppers (I do not know) but it is something totally irrelevant. Unless your aim is just to muddy the waters and support MS propaganda.

RottenApple

@Baron95:

Are you really that stupid or do you actually think we fall for this kind of faulty logic here:

"N9 proves nothing. It simply proves that Nokia can put out a Maemo phone with a swipe UI and call it Meego. It also proves that Nokia could put out another phone with no apps. Another phone with no ecosystem support. "

Yeah, sure. The phone was brand new and had no software.
Think again:
So did the iPhone shortly after its release!!!

Whether the system would have gained traction or not is another matter - but we all know for certain that the main reason it didn't gain any traction was the fact that Elop declared it a zombie right upon release.

The one thing that's certain is that it would have fared better than Windows Phone. Yeah, I know, it's incomprehensible for a True American.


"Another inch phone that only appeals to geeky open source guys."

Again, utter and complete bullshit. That phone would have appealed to lots of people who did not want to deal with Apple or the shitty Android versions that were current at that time. But as we all know it was sacrificed to promote the second worst smartphone OS ever to be released (I'll give Microsoft that they did better than Blackberry OS 7 but that's hardly rocket science to do better than that POS.)

Earendil Star

For those Astros still insisting that Nokia had no ecosystem: then why is MS banking on Here Maps and Nokia MixRadio, just to name a few? Where would MS be without these essential pieces? Just as an example, Apple considered maps of such a strategic importance that they went into a pr nightmare when they initially ditched Google maps.

Again, this badly stinks of stale MS propaganda. And we reallly can't stand this stench any more.

Baron95

@ErendyDarkStart "So, a phone is out, it works, owners are happy, yet this does not count."

That is right it does not.

Users (and even the press) were absolutely delighted with WebOS. Yet it died quickly.

Users are delighted, absolutely delighted by the BB 10 devices. Yet it was the death move by BB. No ecosystem, no sales outside of the BB religious fanatics.

Users (all 400 of them) are absolutely delighted with Jolla (or so they claim). Yet, it is not going anywhere.

You seem to confuse desperate fanatic appeal to a tiny niche with mass market appeal.

Anyone with say $25M can make a batch of phones that would cater to small niche of fanatics - who would praise it to high heavens - and still no one outside that group would buy it.

Every year there are highly acclaimed movies that are loved by their niche audiences and win several critics awards. Yet, are only seen by 5,000 or 10,000 people is special screenings.

It happens all the time. Highly acclaimed produces who can't appeal to anyone outside a niche circle and bomb.

It is amazing that you don't know about this phenomenon.

Baron95

@DeathStar "Where would MS be without these essential pieces?"

hugh......They would buy Pandora and License Google Maps. Or buy spottily and team up with Apple to use their maps backend. Or....enless alternatives really.

They are using that huge number (two) of Nokia services, simply because Nokia was forced to give it away for nearly free.

Don't get confused on who is desperate and selling out and who has the cash and calling the shots in the Microsoft/Nokia relationship.

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