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« Mobile Services Beyond Messaging? Excellent TNS Global Survey Reveals Tons | Main | Understanding OTT - Why Carriers dislike BBM, hate iMessage and fear Skype (updated) »

May 09, 2012

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Peter

Tomi, you are currently attributing Elop's statement as an admission to everything what you have to say about the matter. He only said that "operators do not like Skype". That does not have anything to do about your speculations of Skype influence between operator-Nokia relations.

So Vatar

There is currently a fight going on on Twitter between Tomi and John Pope, apparently Director of Communications of Nokia. Funny stuff if you ask me.

It shows a couple of things:
- Nokia starts to take notice of Tomi and this Blog
- They do not like what is written by Tomi and say he misquotes.

You can saw what you want about Tomi and his (lack of) objectivity, but he is an influencer and his writings about Skype hit a nerve at Nokia HQ.

DEKRA

I needed clean pants after reading this, I just soiled myself laughing.

This post wil no doubt get deleted anyway, but what the heck I'll just give it a try. Eventhough you have some facts and figures going Tomi, you are still making assumptions about what is happening.

Especially this paragraph; Nokia's top USA sales guy left a long term successful Nokia sales job 'for personal reasons' after this Skype boycott...
Nothing but speculation on your end. It seems this blog is similar to Fox News in the US. Just spin all the info in such a way that is seems to contribute to your point.

Right now, WP has no integration of Skype. It has the worst app of all platforms even. iOS has facetime, a feature that works on 30 to 50% of phones in the US alone. Yet Sprint has done a billion dollar investment into getting that VoIP phone on their network. Am I missing something here this time?

And what to think about your lovechild Symbian? That has been able to do VoIP for ages. One of the features you have even been championing ever since the Lumia line came out.

And regarding Elop saying there was a boycott; it was only a real issue for those carriers with a landline business. Implying there is an allout boycott going is just falsified information. Maybe you need to be convicted just liek you suggest for Elop ;)

Mikko Martikainen

@Tomi

Rather good writeup, but one thing bothered me: you bashed Elop for not telling the whole truth, yet you quote him and leave out a very prominent part of what he actually said: "voice over IP like Skype is coming no matter what." And I don't think anyone can honestly argue that VoIP is not coming, and the carriers can only drag their feet and slow down the adoption, nothing more.

@Stephen Reed

Apple has the advantage that iPhone user tend to have higher ARPU than other phone users, and combined with fewer returns and less churn, it makes the iPhone more attractive. However, as iMessage grows and the operators really feel the effect, things might change.

Tomi T Ahonen

To all in this thread

I have been attacked without warning by John S Pope the Director of Communications at Nokia HQ (he's an Elop crony, who joined at the same time). This is after I agreed to the truce with his underlings about not continuing the Twitter debate before. I think this is pretty nasty of Nokia's Director of Communications. And obviously he is not a man of honor. Anyway, if you are interested, the battle is now fully on at Twitter...

I am demanding he show exactly where I misquoted Elop or else issue me public apology. And I have already called him a chicken shit for being such a coward to make baseless general accusations and refusing to be specific

Its a shame, I was fully ok to end the Twitter debate we had previously, I did not re-open this. And I was hoping to spend more time with you who post comments here.. Sorry. Gotta rush back to TW now..

Tomi Ahonen :-)

Peter

The "Attack" is happening because of the point I was trying to make in my previous comment. It's not about misquoting. And you can't expect people from Nokia being pissed if you make a blog post like this one.

Spawn

@Stephan Reed
That plus Apple does consumer-products only. They do not offer enterprise, office, business solutions like Microsoft. Microsofts cash-cows are Windows, including server, and office. They span consumer (end-user), business, enterprise and governments.
Skpe in the Microsoft is nowhere near a Jabner, google talk, msn messaging application. Its integral part of the whole workflow from the consumers desktop, over the windows server, the office suite, sharepoint, the cloud, data-centers, xbox and phones. Imagine what kind of amazing things can be done that way. Things you cannot do today with regular phones, with special hard- and software, without expensive service-agreements and not for completely free, zero money. Surely at the end its not really free. You will need to buy per-user licenses, support, hatd- and software, services but from Microsoft and from Microsoft alone.

That brings me to the next topic: It is Microsoft that profits and Microsoft alone. Microsoft expands its market, extends the lockin, improves influence anf makes more money. How does Nokia profit?
Remember that Microsoft keeps full control over Windows, Skype and Winfows Phone. Nokia is just one of many Microsoft-partners.Nokia does not have that much left that is from huge interest for Microsoft once Windows Phone succeeded (or not). Latest then Nokia has a real problem cause they do not have anything from value left nobody else could do mucj cheaper. When Nokia doest die soon cause Windows Pjone fails it will die later cause Windows Phone succeeded. All that is so suicidal strategy.z

vladkr

What's amazing is that they're still obsessed with this Skype story.

I'm reading this blog since I tried (and finally succeeded in) to buy a N9, and there is much more to debate about than just what Elop admitted about Skype.

What about N9 sales?

What about high return rate of Lumia range?

What about cash bleeding? What about engineers, who were moved to Accenture and are their a** kicked out of the company as Symbian has no future?

How is Nokia managing issue with Romanian government and the EU about factory closure, that is still not resolved?

What do they think about Vertu, which will use Android as soon as it will be freed?

There is so much I'd like to hear/read them about. Please Tomi, ask them if you can (I don't have twitter, and I'm not ready to create an account).

I understand it's easier to pour gas on one single fire to divert people from the rest of problems, but honestly, I'm a bit fed up about this Skype story as everything has been said about it.

I'll end with a popular saying:

Someone who makes one mistake, is human
Someone who repeats a mistake is stupid
Someone who repeats a mistake and doesn't admit it is an a**hole.

Sorry for being rude.

Titanium

@Spawn Great explanation. This explain why operators hate so much Microsoft: due to skype but also due to Microsoft itself

@Tomi Great article, I think it has opened many eyes and this explain the activation of Nokia PR.

vvaz

@DEKRA

"it was only a real issue for those carriers with a landline business"

Only? Only? Did you write this with straight face or what?

China Mobile - 650M mobile subscribers (mob) - also 3rd largest provider of fixed lines in China
Airtel - 250M mob - 2nd largest provider of fixed lines in India
Telefonica - 230M mob - biggest operator of fixed land lines in countries like Spain, Argentina, Brazil
Orange - 220M mob - Orange equals France Telecom, 'nuff said
T-Mobile - over 300M mob - T-Mobile equals Deutsche Telekom, see above

vladkr

You did a good job here Tomi!

Now, instead of spending money on developing good devices, Nokia, which is already spending indecent money on PR and commercial actions will spend even more just to fight against you.

These guys who are directors - paid slightly more than Finland's minimum salary I guess - will spend their days on Twitter to insult you instead of working efficiently*. That will cost a lot to the company, think about it.

*nah, I'm just kidding about this one.

So Vatar

@vladkr
very good points, and I agree, Skype is only a side show. However, personal egos are involved.

Re N9: There is a report on TMO that N9 is discontinued in Finland as of today. And of course there is no successor for this kind of smartphone, at least not from Nokia.

So, does this happen because lack of demand? We know that the Finns buy Lumias, does this mean they prefer WP to Maemo / MeeGo? What does this mean for other markets? Will Nokia cease to offer N9 in China too and go full out with Lumia? What are Nokia's expectations for Lumia sales in regions? Especially China, India, and the US? Western Europe?

So much more I'd like to know. Guess we have to wait and see until thye next numbers come out, and the we can start to speculate all over again what does it mean and what are the reasons for it.

Aki Antman

Oh well, this is actually quite funny. Tomi read the story in Helsingin Sanomat, which really is the biggest newspaper in Finland. But Tomi knows perfectly well that the story was just a quickly written sideline in a bigger story. And of course couple of translations does not help, especially when Tomi sees only what he wants to see. Tomis original post was a typical blog post – but it’s a far cry from accurate news.

But let’s get to the point. Tomi describes quite well why the carriers could hate the Skype and maybe some of them even still hate it. But they have known for quite a while that Skype and other similar solutions are here to stay – the carriers are not stupid, neither are they living in the past.

And the carriers/operators do not hate Microsoft in general. Actually many of them see both Microsoft business and consumer solutions as a very potential new revenue stream for them. I give you one example. Microsoft launched Office 365 in June 2011. The launch partners included over 20 operators like Bell Canada, Intuit, NTT Communications, Telefonica, Telstra and Vodafone. And Office 365 does include Lync. Which will soon include VOIP calls in the cloud versions and already has clients for WP, iOS, Android etc. And most people guess Lync and Skype will be integrated. And yes, the launch partner did know where the roadmaps are going.

For example here in Finland both two big operators (Elisa and Sonera) are selling Office 365. Actually Elisa just released a press release (http://www.elisa.fi/ir/pressi/index.cfm?t=100&o=5120&did=18016, in Finnish – but guess who is a pro translator now :)) on their success and commitment in Office 365 sales.

So please remember things are not as black and white as Tomi likes to write. We all know how quickly (mobile) world moves. Oh yes, it hurts when you have to adapt your business. But tt least Nokia, Microsoft and the carriers are trying to move forward. And the Skype is actually something the consumers love – before the Nokia / Microsoft co-op it was years ago when Nokia had something like that in their offering. And now that Microsoft owns the Skype, it’ll be something to business users will love, too. And the carriers - there is quite a lot happening already…

Peter

@all

Tomi is correct about skype but under a condition: Nokia/MS do not have a killer phone that every users want to buy.

If Nokia promotes Nokia N9 last year, even if nokia supports whole skype integration, it won't be issue for carriers, because n9 would be the coolest smartphone at that time.

Unfortunately Lumia n900 is a disaster as Tomi revealed, looks cool in shop, turns into disaster at home within one week.

Nokia's plight in Q1 is the returned lumia phones and warranty repair cost. The more lumia sold, the more loss nokia is incurring.

Nokia whole boards and new chairman knows it well, however, they continue claiming it is the right team right strategy right product.

Yeah, right things for WS short sellers for sure.

Time to bring all board members into justice.


Peter

jcamdr

Tomi have understand not only the whole situation since the beginning, he understand what point need to be pointed out to make the shareholders realize the devastating end of Nokia. The emphasis on the Skype problem is en entry point because, from the exact wording of Elop on that question, he assumed he was talking to Microsoft shareholders as a Microsoft executive, not to Nokia shareholders as a Nokia CEO. I don't known how to put it strongly enough; there is no more alarming signal of deaf for all the shareholder's money. I really can't get how there can actually sleep at night. Seem to be unthinkable that a destruction of that scale can exists without any reaction. There are all under drug or what ?

Tomifan

I'm no John Pope, but I can easily give them all the answers you ask for.
Elop's full comment is there so I don't include it here. In brief he says:
-Operators don’t like Skype because for those operators it could take away from revenues.
-If operator doesn’t want Skype installed on a Windows Phone from Nokia or any other company, then the operator can make that decision.

and in addition to that (what you seem to take as "admits it"):
-Instead of them just complaining about Skype on Android or Skype on iPhone, with Microsoft and Nokia, we can have a conversation

So Elop admits that operators don't like Skype. WOW! BREAKING NEWS! For heaven's sake. If he would say anything else he would sound as stupid as half-year old puppy with brain damage. It's so blinding obvious I have trouble walking outside after reading your blog where you repeat it.
And now all the mistakes you made and Nokia is furious about:

Tomi: Elop did admit that some operators/carriers do have a problem relating to Skype.
Tomi: He admits three different ways that yes, the carriers do not like Skype. And Elop never denies that this problem exists.
Tomi:
Reality:

Tomi: "Elop clearly admits that there is a reseller problem relating explicitly to Skype. He furthermore admits, the Skype issue has resulted in some carriers actually refusing to carry Lumia."
Mika Hasanen: I believe Nokia has a problem with product distribution. Operators do not want to sell Windows Phone smartphones, because Microsoft has acquired Skype, who offers free Internet calls.
Elop - never said that. Sorry.

Tomi: operators don't like Skype and that they are "Just complaining about Skype"
Elop: Instead of operators complaining about Skype on ANDROID or Skype on IPHONE...
(Microsoft as owner of skype can offer options Google and Apple can't.)
Is this somehow unclear?!? But of course cutting the sentence at that point falsifies it totally and serves your purpose, doesn't it? I have to assume you don'tcount this as "misquote" since you claim you did none.

Tomi: Elop admits the problem is explicit to Microsoft being the owner of Skype.
Tomi: Elop did admit some operators (I never said all) have refused to sell Lumia because of Skype.
Elop: Indeed, Microsoft did buy the Skype company as part of the ecosystem that comes with Windows Phone and Windows and so forth, so that’s quite correct.
I guess I need to point it out:
Operators don't like Skype - Check.
Microsoft owns Skype - Check.
Nokia having problems because Microsoft owns Skype - not there. Sorry.

Tomi: Elop admits Mika Hasanen was "of course" correct in stating "operators do not want to sell Windows Phone smartphones, because Microsoft has acquired Skype."
Reality: The feedback from operators is they don’t like Skype, of course,...
I think I said this once already: IS IT NEWS that it's "of course" for operators not liking Skype? That "of course" was mid-sentence in middle of that long reply and you claim it responds to specific sentence in the question?!?
Naturally, it's not misquoting as you picked the "of course" from his response.

...and then you move to speculation and accusations. Not going down to your level, sorry.

Tomifan

Assuming the fight is still going on on Twitter between Tomi and John Pope, would someone care to point those two to here and tell them to read my comment before Tomi deletes it?

Titanium

@Tomifan Do you realize that you have done copy/cut/paste of pieces of Tomi article's to claim that with pieces of articles you can't make any claim?

A blog is by definition an expression of a personal opinion, we don't need you to remind us.

Concerning the content of the article, after having read the whole transcription I must say that I agree with Tomi's conclusions even if sometimes it is visible that he is a little bit biased by heart.

So Vatar

@Tomifan:
I tried to read your comment but I am unable to comprehend what you mean.

I just guess you mean something like this:
1) Tomi picks parts of quotes he likes in order to make a point.
2) Tomi paints it black or white disregarding the wide shades of gray in between.
3) Nokia does not like what Tomi writes or concludes.
4) They say Tomi misquotes but fail to find a "misquoted" quote.
5) They call on him publicly but come out looking stupid in the debate.

Maybe I don't react so strongly to these techniques as I have to endure it every day watching political infights between Dems and Reps, Obama and Romney, NBC and Fox, etc.
No time for intellectual discussion, just looking for soundbites to make the opponent look bad.

I do have a serious question though:
Do you feel Elop has answered the question presented by the shareholder regarding Skype and impact on Nokia in a straight and unambiguous manner? Maybe Elop's double speak is part of the "He said - she said" problem?

Was Elop asked about number of N9 sold? Did he reply? Did he reply in a manner that was clearly understood by people attending the AGM? I don't know, I was not there. But this lack of clear information opens up a huge space for speculation. And I do not think this is in Nokia's best interest.

Spawn

@Peter

> speculations of Skype influence between operator-Nokia relations.

Please read the article again. Especially the question asked and.the answer given by Elop.

> The "Attack" is happening because of the point I was trying to make in my previous comment. It's not about misquoting

Then you seem to read a different article then me.
I mean its not like Tomi build up a thesis about that. There was a question asked that got answered by Elop. You think Elop did not confirm the statement formulated on th question?

Question: Is there a problem with x?
Answer: Yes. We to solve x with y and turn it from a disadvantage to an advantage.

Did you understand it different? Really? Seriously?

@DEKRA

> Nokia's top USA sales guy left a long term successful Nokia sales job 'for personal reasons' after this Skype boycott...
> Nothing but speculation on your end.


So articles like
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-04-20/news/31373992_1_nokia-siemens-networks-stephen-elop-microsoft-s-windows-phone
and the other 135000 that covered the story are also all written by Tomi? I am impressed :)


PlatformWarrior

I think more relevant question in the share holders meeting would have been "why Nokia's strategy is to put all eggs into WP basket while competitors like Samsung invest in Android as well as WP?" I suspect that it is related to Nokia's badly failed chipset strategy i.e. Nokia cannot compete against Samsung in chipsets so it is desperately trying to create a 3rd ecosystem that it could lead by other means than chipsets. Ollila admited himself that Nokia has chosen "high risk strategy with potentially higher profits" but looking at the development in the share price it seems like less and less people in the market believe in that strategy.

Peter

@all

Tomi is correct about skype but under a condition: Nokia/MS do not have a killer phone that every users want to buy so that nokia can overcome operators opposition of skype.

If Nokia promotes Nokia N9 last year, even if nokia supports whole skype integration, it won't be issue for carriers, because n9 would be the coolest smartphone at that time which would overcome operators opposition of skype.

Unfortunately Lumia 900 is a disaster as Tomi revealed: looks cool in shop, turns into disaster at home within one week.

why operators bother to touch lumia series not to mention the pending skype stuff ?!

Nokia's plight in Q1 is greatly aggragated by the returned lumia phones and lumia warranty repair cost.

The more lumia sold, the more loss nokia is incurring. Now the Noth Amecia Head of Nokia Chris Weber has to promote Nokia 808 pureview which he just declared "won't come to usa weeks ago".


Nokia whole boards and new chairman know it well, however, they continue claiming it is the right team right strategy right product.

Yeah, right things for WS short sellers for sure and even right things to dismantle nokia for sure. Thats exactly road to certain death as Tomi portrayed.

It is time to bring all board members into justice if they do not promote nokia n9/n950 in all markets.


Regards,
Peter

Tomifan

@Titanium
Good taunt. You get this score. But fact is I can't quote the whole blog here. And I won't do the cut-and-comment "autopsy" Tomi did for Burning platform memo where he actually took 6 words from the original text and commented it by 74 words before picking up the REST of that sentence. Won't do.

@So Vatar
I merely pointed out that Tomi repeatedly says he did not misquote and his text is exact words from Elop's response. Now Tomi's words:
operators don't like Skype and that they are "Just complaining about Skype"
And he is 100% correct, the part between quotes is exactly the words Elop said. Too bad the whole sentence was:
"Instead of them just complaining about Skype on Android or Skype on iPhone, with Microsoft and Nokia, we can have a conversation that says 'ok there, is this Skype thing, is there a different type of partnership we can do that recognizes that voice over IP like Skype is coming no matter what, but maybe we can do something creative that generates incremental revenue for you.'"
..which is TOTALLY different since he's talking about Windows Phone platform offering option to operators that complain about Skype on other platforms. But, of course, quoting that would not serve Tomi's purpose. So he did not misquote per se... ...but I don't still count that a good level of using someones words.

In addition, there was unfortunate mistake in my post. That happens when you write fast and don't double check. Here's the correct version (and will be used if I need to repost that comment. Which I will if it gets deleted.):

Tomi: "Elop did admit that some operators/carriers do have a problem relating to Skype."
Tomi: "He admits three different ways that yes, the carriers do not like Skype. And Elop never denies that this problem exists."
...so Elop admits that operators don't like Skype? WOW! BREAKING NEWS! For heaven's sake. If he would say anything else he would sound as stupid as half-year old puppy with brain damage. Operators don't like free Internet calls - that's known by ANY person with a little piece of common sense! It's so blinding obvious I have trouble walking outside after reading your blog where you repeat that fact over and over again.
I guess this is the one place where we can agree Elop DID clearly say operators don't like skype. Unfortunately he did nothing to verify your theory of operator boycott (which is really weird as you claim it only applies to Nokia (S40, S60, MeeGo, WP7) and not to any other manufacturer that is making Windows Phones. Apparently I can't see the deep-rooted conspiracy you see.

Spawn

@Peter

> Nokia whole boards and new chairman knows it well, however, they continue claiming it is the right team right strategy right product.

Yes, they are aware that the Windows Phone srategy is failing but they will keep the course.

The problem is those of responsibily. A failing strategy is not uncommon and usually its in max the CEO being responsible and changed. Not in this case.
The whole board did multiple huge mistakes that will have bad effects on Noki for years if it survives at all.
The huge mistake is NOT the windows phone strategy. Its a mistake but not the reason for the current situation.
The reason for the current situation and the huge mistake was to kill the cash-cow, that was Symbian.
Nokia made all its money with Symbiab ob so called Featurephones. It was decreasong but could have still bring enough cash in to finance a new strategy.
That was a board-decision. Killing the cash-cow before there the new strategy was even in place. Long before.
That was not only not needed but os going to kill now. Elop and the board killed Nokoas cash-cow and burned all bridges down to ever turn back.
I repeat: this was not needed. They could just have put Symbian and Meego on hold, investing only the peanuts needed to keep them alive and give the Windows Phone strategy a try.
Hell, Samsung has 3 os's too and all 3 are actively improved and pushed and not in a cheap hold-and-keep-alive mode.
But no, Nokia killed and burned all its other platforms down so it can never ever return.
As Elop sayed it: There is no plan B.

Peter

Tomifan,

"which is really weird as you claim it only applies to Nokia (S40, S60, MeeGo, WP7) and not to any other manufacturer that is making Windows Phones"

1. other manufacturers do not sleep with microsoft.
2. other manufacturers do not bully and arrogant like Steven Elop to carriers and end consumers.
3. other manufacturers do have overwhelming products to overcome the opposition of carriers to skype.

obviously you simply have no reasoning logic. you need to stop your comments cause your brain is severely damaged and stay in infant age for ever.


Peter

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