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April 25, 2012

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Timo Koola

Nokia reported numbers are channel sales i.e. reconditioned phones would not be part of that 600k figure? Also, wouldn't most Symbian phones on storeshelves be anyway reported as sell-in already earlierly?

@vladkr thanks, I was in no way implying Lumias would be hit phones in Canada. Even if numbers were horrible they would probably be more than 20k?

vladkr

You're welcome Timo;

I just tried to give the most objective facts I could. I live in one of Canadian provinces, which is not really the image of the whole Canada.

I know there was some excitement in Europe at Lumia's launch in Europe, but I haven't seen anything similar here (maybe because main media companies own Telus and Rogers competitors).

So it's very complicated to get any precise figures about what's happening at Nokia.

I'm not even sure that official data is 100% true (there is always a way to trick numbers, by delaying payment for instance, many companies do that)

Prakriti

@vladkr:
thanks for posting the links and reply.

Here are more recent articles you'll like:
1. Elop says 'Multiple cores just waste battery life'
http://www.phonearena.com/news/Stephen-Elop-says-dual--quad-core-phones-just-waste-battery-life_id28048
2. Elop says 'Nokia is no longer in the Danger Zone'
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/elop-nokia-no-longer-in-the-danger-zone-2012-02-13

My last comment was largely sarcastic-- because I am shocked Nokia seems dying and Finland will lose thousands of jobs first in job cuts etc-- and hardly anybody is trying to raise awareness in a organized way.

There is just nothing like that.... and that's something that makes me wonder-- that either it's not as bad as it looks to us all OR there is maybe something more to the story

vladkr

@Prakriti:
Wow, that was quite subtle (or I was quite naive), so I haven't guessed it was sarcasm, sorry. Well done anyway

Many of us see the fire, and want to call the fire squad, but apparently no one has a proper phone to do so, and we just watch Nokia burning/sinking.

My only hope now is that former Nokia talents will group, and create a future leader.

another good, but long reading:
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/mobiles/nokias-windows-phone-bear-hug-is-choking-the-mighty-finn-50007750/

ejvictor

Milton, Milton, Milton.... you're new here, seem to be from America and have never even seen an N9 - possibly even a Symbian phone. 1) Find out what QT is. 2)Try other OS's and ecosystems. At this point would you like ketchup or mustard?

ejvictor

Everything you need to know about Elop's hate for the N9 in one article.

http://conversations.nokia.com/2012/04/25/sharp-design-is-pencilled-in-by-dad-judges/

Poor Ian (author) probably doesn't want to loose his job, but this article is a triumph of corporate assasination. For your consideration;
1) Headline- no mention of N9
2) N9's photo 3rd down is story.
3) N9's category mis-quoted in story.
4) N9 winner of more advanced category-interactive design mentioned as an "also won".
5) No mention that N9 beat iPad2.

How much does Elop hate the N9.... If Job's were alive (RIP) and the iPhone won this every human on the planet would know this and the stock price would have shot up 4 points. :)

karlim

Some pretty cool ideas and food for thought here. And the exercise to duplicate your results, following the way you arrived to them, was certainly an interesting one, even if I failed. As I said earlier- not too good myself with modeling, Excel and stuff. Some observations from it:

Any way I tried to come to it - it seems that the initial thing you did was taking original Lumia launch prices for 800/710 EUR420/270. Add them up and divide by 2. Then use the 1.55 ratio on Eur 220 ASP arriving at your real ASP.

Problem is-ASPs are calculated on real life sales and on real numbers of devices sold. Your whole model assumes 50/50 split between Lumia 800 and 710. How real is that? Possible. Certainly. But just as possible as 40/60, 60/40, 30/70, 70/30 splits and many more in-between. And all the modeling later falls apart if you got that first assumption wrong.

Now moving to U.S sales. And adding the assumption that Nokia sold N710 to T-Mo U.S at the same price it sold it to a carrier in Hong-Kong or Philippines. Which is a rather major assumption too. How you arrived to 290K number, can't figure it out. Did my modelling on my own - and got 5 equally valid numbers for Lumia 710 at 172 Euro ASP, depending on how many of those 0.6M devices sold in North America were Lumias on T-Mobile:

Lumia No. 0.1 0.2 0.3 0.4 0.5
Lumia Revs. 17.2 34.4 51.6 68.8 86
Non Lumia revs 75.8 58.6 41.4 24.2 7
Non Lumia volumes 0.5 0.4 0.3 0.2 0.1

Total US revenues 93 93 93 93 93
Non Lumia ASP 151.6 146.5 138 121 70

All possible.

But we do also have “unpolluted” Nokia U.S sales/unit numbers without any Lumia for the last few years. In every Nokia quarterly report. Divide U.S revenues by units sold up to Q1 - and you get an "unpolluted" Nokia U.S device ASP. Which was at a pretty steady 105 Euro in Q3 and Q4 2011, before the first Lumia shipped in U.S

In Q1 2012 ASP jumped to Eur154. And I have seen no reasons to think why non Lumia ASP should have changed radically in Q1. So most of that ASP jump must have come from Lumia 710. Based on that assumption - T-Mobile is much more likely to have sold somewhere between 400 000 and 500 000 Lumia 710s, then 300K...

If I ignore the fact that all those Nos are for North America, which includes Canada too, at least. Not sure where Mexico fits in in Nokia breakdowns.

If we do include Canada - where Lumia 800 shipped in early February on Rogers, and 710 in early March on TElus - ther is no way to tell.

Well, modeling things get even worse for me for all the stuff later.

karlim

And that's even before we get to those N9 numbers you refer as fact. Based mostly on so flimsy a source as a comment on allaboutsymbian.com website. A wrong and debunked comment, by aas owner Rafe Bladford himself. But I did post the details quite a few times already - not that you did try to even check it, and see if your numbers are indeed correct. Well, won't go into those details again. Will just repost from previous thread:

Tomi's reference to N9 sales indeed comes from a source. The question is about reliability of that source. Which was 1 or 2 commenters on AllAboutSymbian.com. And a comment that was absolutely wrong on assumptions the commenter made, and that was refuted by original author/AAS owner Rafe Blandford and other commenters. And if you have to rely on that kind of source to make your case, and then you start presenting it as a fact... Sorry, but that will be uber lame for any run of the mill blogger. For a guy who is #1 mobile influencer in mobile "according to Forbes", multiple books author yayda yada yada - it is just sad.

Here is Tomi's "reliable sources" about : http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/item/14122_Nokia_Q4_2011-in_the_heart_of_.php#comment-421364228

And one of rebuttals:
http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/item/14122_Nokia_Q4_2011-in_the_heart_of_.php#comment-421726142

Timmy

@Sander
Lumia selling in less areas then N9? Are you aware of the areas where N9/Lumia are sold? Do I really need to google and copy+paste the list? As german i had to spend significant time and energy myself do just give Nokia my money by buying one. It took 2 weeks till the N9 finally arrived at my home. That was cleaely the most difficult process ever to buy a phone here in the capitol city of europes biggest market.

Timmy

@huohuoho
Not representative but here in germany I already saw lots of people with a N9 but no single one with a Lumia. Maybe because we are a high-tech city with lots of developers? Maybe because it is not easy to buy Lumias either since most shops here do not even offee them? Dont know but I do know that it seems to be more or less equally hard here to get a Lumia or N9 and yet N9 seems to sell much better. Maybe different in the US or china. Hard to guess.

Spawn

When Nokias Elop aborted Meego he also aborted a whole productline that was about to be released. Tablets.
Nokia was working on Meego Tablets. There where even offocial releases of Meego for Tablets. It seems that unlike with Meego phone there was no contract that forced Nokia to bring at least one device to market. So the tablet got killed short before it was ready.

Till today Nokia does not offer a tablet cause Windows Phone cannot run om tablets. Now taken the success tablets like the iPas have up to today in the market I do not understand why Nokia aborted that productline without any alternate, after the investment was done and short before it was ready for the market. It makes no sense.

elm70

Just a little news that goes in the direction of Tomi:
http://www.tesco.pl/sklepy/extra/telefony/nokia.php
Yes, Tesco Poland is not selling any Lumia from Nokia, and the N9 is also discounted now, but 2500 PLN, is well over 500 EUR, not sure anybody in a poor country like Poland, in a cheap shop like Tesco is going to buy a N9 ...

Tchuss

e_lm_70

KimiRäkä

NO WAY that N9 has been produced that many units! 2 mil. N9 unit costs 190 € to make no way Nokia has put 400 million into making a PASSING PRODUCT NEVER TO BE RETURNED TO AGAIN !!

-- ALERT -- ALERT -- REALITY DISTORTION FIELD IMMINENT -- ALERT -- ALERT -- START WARP ENGINES AND MAKE TURN -- ALERT

Edward Bonney

I wonder about the lack of traction in Asia. There is not much in the way of hard numbers coming out of Asia. Lumia is the second best selling phone after iphone in the third largest telecom operator in China - even third is something given the number of subscribers involved. Also the blown away by Nokia campaign seems on the face of things to be successful in India with Samsung complaining about unfair marketing. Also I wonder how pureview will affect the sales figures although it is just going on sale in May. But maybe I am indulging in wishful thinking here.

In any case Tomi is a pretty bitter guy it seems to me and while I can take on board his arguments about the N9 and Elop and so on, I think it is too late for Nokia to reverse its course and it is better to see this through to the end whatever it may be. AT&T and Verizon have a stake in seeing that Nokia succeeds and so those Microsoft so that gives Nokia an advantage.

bhakumar

My son bought an N9. I said why you bought a product that is ceased. He cursed me. We'll see who is right!

Prakriti

@vladkr:
thanks for the reply-- BTW, whats your twitter ID ? can you reply this with your twitter ID as "web site url" ?

P

Very good interview
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/mobiles/nokias-windows-phone-bear-hug-is-choking-the-mighty-finn-50007750/
* 'Elop has no overarching vision for Nokia'
* 'He sold the deal as Windows Phone or nothing -- it wasn't'
* 'Symbian was Nokia's cash-cow -- Elop sacrificed it'
* 'Android is not the answer'
* 'Today's Lumia phones have stacks of shortcomings'
* 'Nokia is Finland, and Finland is Nokia'

Sander van der Wal

@Timmy

Look at the areas list Tomi posted. If you have a problem with the numbers, complain to him, not to me, as the numbers are his, not mine.


@P
Lee williams is one of the people who got Nokia into this situation in the first place.

Mush

N9 still is the best phone Nokia has to offer, I'm just considering buying one myself. Yes, there is not much applications for it, but it has Angry Birds! (Where is Angry Birds for Windows Phone?) And very nice multitasking, which might come to Windows Phone in the next few years :-P

Jack1059

I agree Tomi. Nokia will be reduced to a shadow of its former self before the WP7 strategy gets enough traction, if it ever does. Most issues I find with people assessing Nokia (other than yourself) is that they focus entirely on sales figures within the US. Nokia was a mobile phone manufacturer with a truly global reach, except in the US. They simply sold phones everywhere. And offered services in more languages than any other manufacturer. And now Elop has them focused strictly on the US market and MS. Refusing to sell a phone that people want is another jaw dropping mismanagement exercise. Throw all that development cash into the toilet to protect your pet project. Crazy. How this clown still has a job based on share price, market share, sales, is astonishing.

CN

@Jack1059

To me it looks like it's Tomi who takes examples from US and e.g. Finland, with somewhat questionable claims on sales boycotts etc. And in response, Tomi gets feedback from many people, arguing his analysis is not necessarily a correct one.

Then again, many people agree with Tomi's view, many don't. You do, I don't. I respect your opinion, you do the same for the one who disagree with you.

Nokia still is global manufacturer with a global reach - with this pace they'll deliver 300-400 million phones all over the World, nothing's changed in that respect. Yes, volumes have come down, but it's still a lot.

I feel US is on top of the discussions due to Nokia's bad history there and now when there is potentially a bit of light at the end of the tunnel, it's only natural there is some enthusiasm, both pro Nokia as well as against them. Secondly, it's US where LTE happens big time (~60% of LTE subs today), along with huge smart phone business. Add the fact that it's Apple's and Google's home turf, so not a surprise it has big focus.

vladkr

@Prakriti: Hi... sorry, I don't use Twitter, I'm not modern enough (and I also limit my use of internet to leave some room to enjoy life)...


Anyway, apparently disinformation war continues...

UK will get their Lumia 900 with 2 weeks delay because of "Overwhelming" US demand. I thought that was because of connection problems that have to be solved before, but why not...

I'm sure that with a little financial effort, at Compal they're able to manufacture and ship enough L900 for the UK on time, just like Foxconn did with the iPhone and the iPad.

I can't prove that Tomi's numbers are right or wrong... but what I see for sure, is that Nokia's financial situation is really ugly, nobody can deny this, and even Nokia's CEO can't (cf his reaction about the "mixing" lumia results).

So besides what Tomi tells us, there are facts. Is the WP only strategy a success? Clearly not!

Many will tell me to wait next year, when Nokia and WP8 will kick everybody's ass... Soviet Union officials used to say the same about their country until it was financially ruined and collapsed.

How many billions and jobs have to be lost for the situation considered as being critical at Nokia?

cycnus

@Tomi (and Baron95)

Great news:
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/mobiles/nokias-windows-phone-bear-hug-is-choking-the-mighty-finn-50007750/

@vladkr

It's a marketing strategy that Elop use to say the lumia sales is great, and you should get it... It's a fake!!!!

elm70

@vladkr:

Nokia capitalization is less then 10B Euro now. So no more then 10B can be lost now from Nokia.
In 2008 at peak, Nokia had almost 100B Euro capitalization, this give you the sense of what OPK and Elop manage do destroy.
Yes, in absolute term OPK did destroy more then Elop, but in percentage nobody could have done better the Elop, -70%

About people that can lose job, this is in the order of 100k, 60k direct employee of Nokia, plus similar for NSN

I think in few quarters, NSN numbers will be looking much better then Nokia numbers

Tchuss

e_lm_70

ps: While Nokia is sinking, I would not exclude that Ballmer will try to approach Samsung for promote his OS, this will be the final deadly hit from Microsoft-Elop to Nokia

pps: Jorma is incredible, he is still supporting Elop, even when all evidence show that Elop is bringing quickly into bankrupt Nokia

DS

@elm - tesco may be selling overpriced N9 but you can easily buy one online with much reasonable price http://www.ceneo.pl/13448036 (1$ = 1pln/3,16)

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    Tomi Ahonen is a bestselling author whose twelve books on mobile have already been referenced in over 100 books by his peers. Rated the most influential expert in mobile by Forbes in December 2011, Tomi speaks regularly at conferences doing about 20 public speakerships annually. With over 250 public speaking engagements, Tomi been seen by a cumulative audience of over 100,000 people on all six inhabited continents. The former Nokia executive has run a consulting practise on digital convergence, interactive media, engagement marketing, high tech and next generation mobile. Tomi is currently based out of Hong Kong but supports Fortune 500 sized companies across the globe. His reference client list includes Axiata, Bank of America, BBC, BNP Paribas, China Mobile, Emap, Ericsson, Google, Hewlett-Packard, HSBC, IBM, Intel, LG, MTS, Nokia, NTT DoCoMo, Ogilvy, Orange, RIM, Sanomamedia, Telenor, TeliaSonera, Three, Tigo, Vodafone, etc. To see his full bio and his books, visit www.tomiahonen.com Tomi Ahonen lectures at Oxford University's short courses on next generation mobile and digital convergence. Follow him on Twitter as @tomiahonen. Tomi also has a Facebook and Linked In page under his own name. He is available for consulting, speaking engagements and as expert witness, please write to tomi (at) tomiahonen (dot) com

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